Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.

But in a way GK was right. People like her naively put trust in Stonewall and Mermaids et al as being knowledgeable, even about badly written, confusing laws. They thought of them as being serious institutions.

They thought these groups were compassionate and altruistic advisers about trans people, including children, said to be marginalised, suffering and likely to die.

Maybe decades ago. but these days, really? We pay these people to be on top of their brief.

Men, by definition, have never entered a female only space. They don't know if women behave different while they are in there or not.

Also note the way that this conversation has been derailed onto "toilets, aren't you silly".

24Jules

You're not the first person to suggest that there's a significant number of transwomen who a) think they pass (when most of them really don't). And b) who would deceive women in order to access their intimate spaces without a second thought.

As the saying goes. Good men stay out so that bad men stand out.

The fact that you're only engaging with those posts where you can push an agenda tells me everything I need to know here, @24Jules

The GRA or the EqA doesnt give men access to female only spaces. It doesn't matter if they are repealed or not for these purpose.

Why would a man risk upsetting girls by entering a space thats not designed for him?

The idea that most of these male people look, sound or appear to be genuinely women is ludicrous, to be frank.

If men want to deceive women in order to violate their boundaries, and the women don't know, there's not much that can be done, is there.

Same old, same old.

As I said this has been discussed many times over. And many of us would simply like these males to be asked to respect women and not invade our spaces, not be invited in against our will.

"How do you know nobody was aware?"

Over 20 years watching it, and never any sign of recognition whatsoever. Women acting completely uninhibited. They clearly didn't, and still have no idea, and no harm or embarrassment has been caused.

But whatever, if it's so absolutely objected to, how is it actually going to be resolved? Not how would you LIKE it resolved, but how WILL it be resolved?

I can't see either the equality act or the gra being repealed. Labour won't repeal them, and they are set to be the government for the next 5 years AT LEAST. If anything, trans rights will be strengthened.

I don't see how some men being fooled into believing a man is a woman is any proof that a man can be confident that he would 'pass' in a womans space?

I've been to SE Asia several times and met transsexual males there, and you still get that uncanny feeling even then. Males don't often fool women, because we've evolved to be wary of strange men.

You must be aware of the quite large numbers of non western trans women coming to live on the uk. They too take hormones from a very very young age.

Who will you vote for? Sunak or Starmer?

With Starmer, there will be more transgender rights, not less. Reform is a wasted vote.

This.

Many women will try not to react when they clock an MTF, because they are scared both of unpredictable, often unstable males, and being singled out as a bigot.

I have

I should have said that no one sensible thinks that being transgender should be illegal. You can’t make something that someone believes illegal.

What you can do is require single sex spaces and services be just that, not conflate sex with gender, and not claim that anyone can change their sex through cosmetic surgery.

Whether it is believed by people here or not, I know for a fact (and no I am not going to present evidence), that there are undetectable (for want of a better word) trans women using female toilets, and nobody else in them at the time, has been aware of it and hence not upset at all.

How do you know nobody was aware?

Even if you were there, you werent everyone in the room, you don't know what anyone else thought.

It needs to be made clear to men that it's unlikely that they pass enough to be undetected in womens spaces, especially when girls are likely to be there. I dont understand why its so difficult for them to see this.

OFSTED would have been delighted with the worst offending materials about Gender that had been bought in. That’s my guess.

Also, Miriam was a slight Mexican who took hormones in early teens. The overwhelming majority of U.K. males are never going to be convincing as women.

But in a way GK was right. People like her naively put trust in Stonewall and Mermaids et al as being knowledgeable, even about badly written, confusing laws. They thought of them as being serious institutions.

They thought these groups were compassionate and altruistic advisers about trans people, including children, said to be marginalised, suffering and likely to die.

No one realised they were just campaign groups using Denton principles to imbed their beliefs throughout society - even government, the judiciary, the NHS so of course education too - based on unfounded ideas about sex and gender, and also Queer theory, all the while piggy-backing on Gay rights which the public were now more familiar with.

Ok, I haven't seen that. 5 out of 6 were fooled.

No, more than one suspected, plus the first guy was very open about what he thought.

Thank you. I still ask, if nobody is aware that a transwoman is in the toilet, then how will anybody be upset?

This was already answered, by me. Please stop being so disingenuous. Have a little empathy for women's privacy and dignity, it isn't hard to wrap your head around. My analogy was perfectly valid.

But as an example, even though the Transwoman called Miriam hadn't had genital surgery, 6 men on that tv reality show were completely fooled. And they got pretty close up and personal. One later claimed he knew along, but I think that claim was to save his reputation.

Have you actually watched the original series? It's available online. At least two of them did work it out. The one you mentioned was ejected in the first episode, he was quite open about it to the others and they discussed it when Miriam wasn't there.

I forgot to put the link.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714929-gillian-keegan-guidance-does-not-need-to-legally-define-what-a-girl-is?page=1

Perhaps some kind of insignia on the forehead?