Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.

I agree with this. Surely if the Education Secretary previously held a simplistic TWAW view and has now changed her mind - with the apparent result being that safeguarding is starting to be brought back in the room - that is a good thing?

Feels like Emma knows they fucked it yesterday and took this opportunity to dump on GK. I'm no fan either. But if she'd done nothing to fix this and just kept her head down until the GE...are we saying that would be preferable? I assume not.

Overall I thought it as good. If EB had not tried to put some of the TRA's side, it would have been dismissed as one sided. She gave GK the opportunity to talk mostly sense which presents better imo

And Debbie Hayton has clearly told us that even if fully transitioned (i.e. had their penis cut off), transwomen can still have an AGP fetish, which I would say makes it highly inappropriate for them to be sharing single sex spaces with girl children. Which presumably would be the consequence of Gillian Keegan's view and which makes her entirely inappropriate to be Education Secretary.

I haven't listened yet but this is worrying if true. It's saying to children that they really DO need the full surgery to be fully transitioned, rather than saying wear what you want, express yourself and do what you want but you're still the sex you were born.

Many will take this as advocating surgery which we know is experimental at best - it's quite an anti-Cass position from the Education Secretary.

Transwomen who've had bottom surgery still have a male shoulder to hip ratio, will be faster and stronger than women with greater lung capacity, more of a certain type of muscle (I can't remember this bit!). Katie Dolatowski, convicted child sex offender, will still be 6ft 5 even with no penis.

Emma says she's across this issue. If that's the case, why didn't she challenge Rebecca Leak yesterday when she said the concern was about same sex issues? When it is not.

I didn’t love MK so hopefully EB will work out better

And whether GK came down in the side of fully transitioned males being women or not is, I think, less important than the fact that she highlighted that many transwomen are actually still fully intact males. This needs to be brought to the attention of those who think it's just being kind to let these men into women's single sex spaces and sports.

I like EBs passion.

And day 2 of her Today gig - hit the ground running I guess!

I'm not sure whether any of the other presenters would have got to the nub of what GK believes on the subject of gender recognition. It was also heartening to see GK admit that she had been on a journey with respect to gender matters.

Agree 2020 is early on all this

Some pp on here were aware early but for many of us we come to it as women speak up

R4 has always done interruptions, which can be annoying, so that pls being nervous or emotive won’t help listening

I wasn't a minister back in 2020 at all and yet I knew about all this.

They knew they were just too afraid to do anything about it.

It was good that the interview actually happened. It wouldn't have done so even a year ago. I love Emma Barnett and think she's a great interviewer but I was very disappointed in her performance in this case. She was, as others have said, unnecessarily argumentative. I think she talked over Gillian Keegan rather than the reverse. Still, it's good to hear the issue debated. And I'm not surprised that Gillian Keegan hadn't given the issue much thought up until 2020. Most people hadn't and many people still haven't which is why we need more interviews and debates like this.

I didn’t hear much but she just sounded too worked up from the get go

I think that’s it. Emma wanted to go in all guns blazing as the resident today show “expert” and it just became shouty and confusing.
emma also has only come relatively recently to this subject compared to how long MN has been discussing it so that’s a pointless thing to spend 3 mins arguing over. A calm reasonable discussion would have been better. If I was uninterested in this subject I’d have rolled my eyes and turned the radio off and that won’t ultimately win the argument.

Justin Webb has been very good on gender issues, so much so that he was officially reprimanded not that long ago for pointing out that trans women are male. Nick Robinson has also done some interviews that haven't been 100% #bekind, IIRC.

I think it’s dreadful. Gillian talking over Emma continually, not letting her ask clear questions, going off on irrelevant tangents …

What came across clearly, in the end, is that GK still thinks that it is “kind” to say that transwomen are women, provided that they have had “gender reassignment surgery". This is still the nonsense that it is possible to change sex, though GK has thankfully moved away from self id.

I like Emma Barnett but I thought this was a very poor interview on an important subject. She sounds desperate to win her spurs and prove she can challenge politicians on Today. As a result she kept interrupting and I think anyone not familiar with the topic (unlike Mumsnetters) would have struggled to make heads or tails of it. Emma needs to calm down.
I hope she gets there when she is less nervous. She could learn from Amol Rajan who I think manages to challenge effectively but calmly.

But GK still said that TW who have had surgical reassignment are women

That leapt out at me too.

But GK still said that TW who have had surgical reassignment are women - I think I would contest that albeit with much greater sympathy than those who wish to expose themselves in female changing rooms.

A very useful interview. Keegan has been on a journey, as they say.

Gillian keegan has only been education minister since 2022 so she wouldn’t have been looking particularly at this issue in 2020.
there was literally no need to hammer her for that and it wasted interview time.
back in 2020 everyone basically thought trans women were women apart from mumsnetters and she has obviously given it more thought since becoming education minister in 2022.
i think she deserves credit not a battering from Emma!

Very interestingly on twitter, both GC and non GC / trans ally posters saying well done to Emma. I'm guessing she succeeded at BBC balance then. I really enjoyed hearing a more detailed, if heated, discussion of these issues.

Is there a new editor? The style of the programme just feels different (not just Emma, or maybe I am paying more attention).

Goodness, they've booked Sharron Davies this morning too, albeit for Hep C scandal.