Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.

It's good that they are allowing Emma her head.

And the next stage is to address autogynephilia.

Because there are men who have had genital surgery who are AGP. See Hayton.

Also, the penises aren't removed. They are inverted to look like female genitalia. And these men are told that they will still have sexual arousal. From what remains of their penis, inverted though it is.

So what is the logic of deciding they must be women? Effort?

is Gillian Keegan really saying that if men make enough effort they can access vulnerable women and girls? Even those who get a sexual kick out of it?

I can't wait to find out the answers to those questions.

And if Emma is all over it, she's going to be the person to ask them.

IIRC Ofsted was grading schools down if they did not TQ+ their materials. They were in one of the Stonewall schemes. They realised this was going to shit and exited earlier than otherwise might have done.

They and others need to be held to account. We need a public inquiry.

You can't do education properly if you abandon safeguarding, you're mangling English pronouns and destroying critical thinking.

What I don't understand from all this PHSE (and this might not be the right place to ask), by why hasn't Ofsted ever stumbled on the "bought in" teaching materials and/or consultants and queried the appropriateness of it?

The interview sounded scrappy, though looked better in the R4 Today film clip tweet.

I do wish R4 would interview somebody who would explain this cogently and had the evidence to hand.

Secondly very, very few transwomen have been surgically 'reassigned' i.e. castrated.

I suspect (and I doubt I am alone in this) that Joe and Josephine Public may not be fully aware of this. I think it's a point that needs to be made more often.

First of all they are cannot be women. It's impossible.
Secondly very, very few transwomen have been surgically 'reassigned' i.e. castrated. Some might have had breast implants.

On the subject of Labour @duc748 , I was very concerned to see Sharon White being trailed in the Guardian as Starmer’s cabinet secretary. It’s a hugely influential position and I assume SW is TWAW given the direction of travel of John Lewis in the last few years.

The way I heard it was EB presented to GK that she'd said TWAW in 2020, then in the interview GK said TWANW, and then later on in the interview GK said TWAW if they get their cocks chopped off.

EB's "aggression" was going after such incoherent and illogical positioning where the goalposts were shifting according to whatever point GK was seeking to make at any particular moment.

In general, it's remarkable that the BBC are giving time to cover "gender identity" but where's the curiosity about what the term might be when it's unclear to just about everyone? Also, where's the interest in why "gender identity" is such a hot topic that discussion of the concept is being restricted? (Clue: it's because of the harms that can come from its application.) Related to this question, a deeper explanation comes from Cass. Why aren't the BBC linking this measure in education to Cass? Obviously, that's somewhere that they don't want to go to.

Thank you for posting this.

I wonder if Keegan has through this through. Would she think it's ok for a male teacher who has been castrated to chaperone young vulnerable girls in single Sex spaces? Would she be happy ignoring the discomfort of the girls?

There's such a long way to go. So many Tories don't fully get it (GK offering her own, customised definition of TW?), and every reason to believe Labour pols will be worse.

Really???

It was an absolute car crash

She said that transwomen are women and - extremely concerning - that they are medically female if they've had surgery.

She was incoherent and obnoxious

I actually thought I heard GK say "aren't", not "are" re the TWAW question. But it wasn't easy to hear and everyone else seems to have heard the opposite so I think it was my hearing!!

Castrated men are not women. Womanhood is a biological reality. We are not men with missing penises. We are female. It’s dangerous and irresponsible to suggest that men can become women if they mutilate their genitals. It will lead to more men undergoing dangerous and irreversible treatment. It’s much kinder to tell males they are free to adopt a female name and feminine dress style if they wish, but they will never be the same as biological females. Therefore, they do not have the right to access provisions set aside for actual women.

I think one relevant point is that when answering difficult questions, politicians are trained to talk in long complex sentences as though they are getting to a point, but then rarely do. They know time is limited and are talking the clock down. They rely on the listener glazing over. I think Emma is very aware of this and trying to keep the answers on point. The education of our children in these matters is highly important and ministers who don’t understand the issues should be doing some research, not just nodding things through.

My take away from the interview;

Nothing to do with me guv. The slogan TWAW is code from a campaign group and it is these groups that have been causing confusion by building a set of materials and the ideology.

Listening to the interview now, thanks OP.

Keegan hasn’t changed her view much: she no longer supports self-ID but she thinks womanhood is a reward for males who have surgery.

Irrespective of this particular issue, I never get the sense that Keegan is on top of her brief 🤷‍♀️

Edited to clarify

@GerbilStyle I agree with what you said

I thought EB was got very carried away and argumentative and GK held her own really well. I find a lot of the R4 interviewers get very het up when interviewing though and it becomes a battle rather than question and answer, I'd like them to all calm down.

I know pe...erm...mountain climbing is a journey. Some of us started earlier or travelled faster than GK but <sigh> this was the headline in the 'live' section of the Telegraph

I've screenshot it because it'll probably be updated with newer news.

An upside perhaps is that'll it will open a debate to the wider world. Although, ffs, 'what is a woman'....still!?

if you're just hearing this for the first time , it's impossible to comprehend how far reaching the effects of the TWAW mantra are. It would take a couple of full length documentaries to reach the points that are raised on this section of the internet.
I thought KJK and Graham Lineham were deranged when I first read their take, now I think they were the only adults in the em room at one stage.
Edited to say , it's impossible for Emma to do more than scratch the surface in one interview but if she keeps plugging away, she will get it all out in the open

I enjoyed it massively.

I think GK is a really interesting minister to interview (and a massive headache to media train). She takes questions so personally and reacts as a personal affront. But she's undeniably passionate and cares that she's seen as effective. That's quite rare and unusual.

I also like EB as an interviewer, she's very sharp and was holding back massively during this piece. She'll get a lot of heat because women voices in debate just get dismissed as bickering but the content was great.

Compared with Amol and his interview with the Labour campaigns guy this morning, it was balanced so much better. Amol was biased, with irrelevant questions which undermined proper political critical analysis.

If she wasn't education secretary that might be an excuse but safeguarding should be central to her department, it should be the most important thing.

While safeguarding is crucial, I think education should be the most important thing for the education department to focus on.

If she wasn't education secretary that might be an excuse but safeguarding should be central to her department, it should be the most important thing. And clearly it's not.

Schools get marked down by Ofsted if they don't have a strong enough 'safeguarding culture' and yet the education secretary doesn't mention it at all? The Cass review is about safeguarding.

Did Emma ask if Keegan thinks fully transitioned males are women then should they be allowed to share single sex spaces with girl children in schools? And should parents be informed of this fact, knowing that a very large number of parents do not believe a human can change sex? Some will have religious prohibitions on mixed sex too.

I liked EB here but I do wonder what people who don’t know the background make of it all. I think points need spelling out much more calmly and clearly. For example I think lots of people still don’t realise that trans women include people who have taken no steps at all to transition and fully present as men.

GK trying her best not to say “we said TWAW in 2020 because we hadn’t really thought it through and just thought it meant “be nice to trans people” and now it turns out it’s a bit more complicated than that”.

I did think Safeguarding should have been mentioned but time was limited