Government tells schools to teach “biological sex” and contest gender “ideology”: do you support this? YouGov Daily survey

Sorry, I didn’t mean my post to sound so accusatory, I made it pre coffee! Thanks for the additional info.

Signalbox · Today 10:42

Thanks. I did find the text and clicked all over it and the photo, with no result.

I'm less bothered about the metaphysics than the actual biology. What's wrong with saying 'some people want gender reassignment' and leave their motives out of it. Talking at length about an ideology then saying 'not everybody believes in it' seems like a roundabout way of saying that the trans person is doing a foolish thing.

The thing that worries me most is that children could be left with the impression that true gender reassignment is possible (Keegan on Today seemed to think so) and therefore they can choose their own sex as an adult. Primary age children still have an evolving concept of sex (and everything else. Remember, you can persuade a child you gave her more juice by pouring it into a taller, thinner glass.). So this idea needs stamping out early.

What they need to absorb, somehow, is that the technology does not and cannot exist to, say, turn a man into a woman. It's cosmetic surgery. You won't be able to have sex and reproduce like a woman, and people will still be able to tell you aren't one.

Should pupils be allowed to insist that boys can’t really become girls?

yes!

The Guardian's take:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/17/sex-education-political-football-childrens-sake-adults-grow-up

... contrary to some early headlines, it’s not quite the new section 28. Teachers won’t actually be banned from covering trans identities full stop: they will be explicitly required to cover the legal process for transitioning and the protection against discrimination equality law gives to people undergoing gender reassignment. But crucially, they will be banned from teaching the broader concept of “gender ideology” – the idea that people have a gender identity that might differ from their biological sex, which underpins trans identities – unless directly asked by pupils, and even then they will have to explain that it’s contested (in other words, that some people don’t believe in it). They’ll be obliged to teach “facts about biological sex” and banned from using materials suggesting that gender lies on a spectrum or is determined by stereotypical interests such as wearing pink or playing with dolls – to the extent, of course, that any school ever did.

Though all this arguably brings schools into line with an outside world where an adult’s right to express gender-critical beliefs in the workplace has been upheld by the courts, it leaves teachers walking a gossamer-thin tightrope.

Should pupils be allowed to insist that boys can’t really become girls? What if there’s a vulnerable trans girl in the class, or trans teacher in the school? At best this will be a task for highly skilled specialists, benefiting from the kind of extra training and support that ministers conspicuously aren’t offering here. Not for the first time, schools are being asked, somehow magically, to resolve an issue that has defeated wider society, or, at the very least, sweep the pieces tidily under the carpet, without the tools to do so.

I suspect many of the public think you can be born one sex (which they would call biological sex) and become another.

I don't think many people think you can actually change sex, just that you can pass for the opposite sex and then really what does it matter?

It's only when you think about it a bit more that you see that in some cases it really does matter; sport, health etc.

I think the 'no debate' and 'transphobic to question' stance meant that people were/are afraid to ask the obvious questions once they think a bit more about it.

Decades ago the common expression used was "sex change". I suppose that sowed the seed in people's minds that changing sex was possible. (I am old enough to remember all the discussion about April Ashley).

When you click on the link in the OP if you scroll down to this pic and click on it that should take you to the poll...

First question is...

After a government review, schools in England won't be allowed to teach sex education to children under nine. The review went ahead after Rishi Sunak said some young students were being taught "inappropriate content". Do you think this is generally a good or bad idea?

Live results

Good 62%
Bad 32%
Not sure 6%

Another question is...

The new guidance set out by education minister Gillian Keegan will advise schools to teach that there are two biological sexes, and that gender "ideology" should be taught as a contested topic. Do you generally support or oppose this guidance?

Live Results

Strongly support 50%
Tend to support 16%
Tend to oppose 14%
Strongly oppose 17%
Not sure 3%

There's around 9 questions in total.

There is also a warning up saying "the poll results you see throughout this chat are live and therefore do not reliably represent public opinion."

Nellodee · Today 06:17

You’re only giving one half of the results. If 53% say they don’t think you should teach that you can change gender, that doesn’t mean 47% disagree with that position.

Yes, I was wondering about the other answers, too.

I set up a YouGov account, but nothing happens when I click on the story / chat.

It looks like it’s a live poll so the figures quoted above are changing all the time.

Here's the relevant part.

https://consult.education.gov.uk/rshe-team/review-of-the-rshe-statutory-guidance/

The link to the pdf is at the bottom of the page.

"Medically allowed to be a woman"????? Wtf does that mean?

Do you think people answering that are taking gender to mean biological sex? It weird because they also mention biological sex.

The problem is that it genuinely is complicated.

The intention of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 was that people with a Gender Recognition Certificate should be treated as if they had actually changed sex. Several court judgements have confirmed this and the Equality Act 2010 calls such people "transsexuals".

(And the EA created the mess with exceptions, once realisation about the GRA's real-world implications had dawned.)

I suspect many of the public think you can be born one sex (which they would call biological sex) and become another.

I'm struggling to find a link to the actual consultation. Can anyone help? Lots of PSHE teachers on forums saying just wait it out; once Labour are in they can carry on teaching GI as fact.

You’re only giving one half of the results. If 53% say they don’t think you should teach that you can change gender, that doesn’t mean 47% disagree with that position. There are always lots of don’t knows in these things.

I think it’s because Labour bought in to the TRA approach and painted opposition as being rightwing bigotry and the left leaning media, populated as it is by people who listen to political spin doctors more than the people they serve, went along with it. But it doesn’t reflect the debate in the UK and Labour are having a hard time pivoting into reality.

The Conservatives, though, have not bought into that line and I don’t think the YouGov polls reflects the Tory position on this at all.

Yes I agree @NumberTheory

It may be a problem with understanding, but I think the questions just aren’t that coherent and are entirely inappropriate for a UK audience.

YouGov seem to only be interested in debates as two sided (a constant failing of theirs) and in this context they inevitably shape those sides as TRA v. US Right opposition. I don’t think there are many people in the UK who take either of those two positions. So the results they get are a mess of people trying to fit their round pegs into square holes.

I think there is a school of thought that changing your gender presentation changes your gender to some extent depending on how successfully you “pass” as you will then get treated as your presentation gender. But that doesn’t change your sex and will not give you access to knowing what it’s like to be the other sex only what it’s like to be subject to their gender expectations. And obviously that experience can never be complete as you will never have “passed” your entire life and will still have the experience of being your sex and treated as your sex for some of it.

And some people, women included, simply cannot detach themselves from the idea that women, both their physical presence and the very concept of them, should be therapy for some men.

Perfect description.