DD14 is regularly assumed to be trans/NB/a boy - any advice on how she can respond?

@DuchessNope I was also mistaken for a boy in my early years of high school but I can remember I wasn’t the only one. The huge difference is that women and girls weren’t having to contend with men in their spaces being protected by the authorities - if a man ventured into female toilets he’d have been turfed out and possibly named and shamed.

Yes!! When I was at school in 70s and early 80s lots of us girls had short hair and dressed not too dissimilar to the boys. Gender neutral clothing was pretty normal. Now it’s so much more strictly defined with girls hair/boys hair and ditto with clothes.

Lots of places — the beauty industry is massive, as is the porn industry unfortunately. Male-dominated power structures, the media, the music and fashion industries - etc etc etc. We’ve definitely gone backwards. Like you, myDSs don’t have anything like the same pressure .

I also find this woman performance thing meaningless. What I was responding to by saying let’s not be rose tinted is the posters saying in the 80s it wouldn’t be a thing for a teen girl to be mistaken for a boy as everyone could have their hair however they wanted. This is not true, it just isn’t.

I was born early 80s and I'm not being rose tinted about it. I'm autistic though, may be why I find much of this woman performance thing meaningless.

Where is the pressure coming from? My DS's college friends don't seem to be affected, but it is a tech college and girls are a minority so I guess self selected.

I do agree sex stereotypes are more rigidly enforced now by the way and that social media has made things worse. But let’s not be too rose tinted about the past. I was born in the late 70s.

I wonder if it's because I was born in the 80s that I can't relate to the Barbie monologue at all. It seems like it belongs in a time before mine, but maybe if things are going backwards again? Then younger women in my family go on about women needing more clothes, more wardrobe space than men, or more time to get ready, and I can't relate to that either. Clothes, hair, makeup, have nothing to do with being a woman to me. They are choices if you like those things, but you can just wear jeans and t-shirt with short hair, that used to be common for women.

I don’t want to make this all about me but those of you saying nobody cared in the 80s/90s clearly didn’t grow up near me! I used to get loads of abuse for looking like a boy. I also got challenged in toilets (“there’s a lad in here”) and generally mistaken for a boy. I was just quite small/ flat chested and I had short hair because my mother had it cut short rather than deal with it being messy.

I imagine if I had been as beautiful as Annie Lenox or Sinead O Connor this would not have been a problem! But as a plain gawky teen girl it was a fucking nightmare.

I agree @Imustgoforarun We all wore pretty masks ch what we wanted in the 80s, there was far less requirement to conform to a norm and far more opportunities to be creative. Many of us had short hair, we dressed androgynously, and thankfully the beauty industry was minuscule in comparison to today. I really feel for my twenty-something DD and her friends, the pressure on them to look a certain way is enormous and I hate it.

I think misogyny has more heads than the Hydra.

This is a brilliant phrase, and absolutely true.

I wonder how females like Annie Lennox or Sinead O Connor coped years ago. I use to think they were beautiful and was a fan girl. Never thought they looked like boys because in the 80s and 90s we all wore what we wanted. Pink just wasn’t sold in shops. My younger brother would wear my trousers and jumpers.

we really are going backwards in terms of equality and how we look.

That was in response to the suggestion she should be aggressive and I stand by that. Many women are fed up of having to worry about finding males in their space, so if a male-looking person starts being aggressive in response to a ‘these are the female toilets’ type comment then I would suggest most women would think ‘typical male response’ and either double down and match/raise the aggression or leave - neither are ideal. If a woman says ‘these are female toilets, please leave’ then far better to say ‘it’s ok, I’m female’ in response than to get aggressive - esp as the OP has said her DD doesn’t want confrontation.

I think misogyny has more heads than the Hydra.
I was shamed as a teenager for wanting to look pretty - makeup, earrings &c. From a conservative Christian perspective. I don't know if you know the phrase "painted Jezebel," but that sort of thinking.
I just wanted to look lovely and instead was taught that female people are by definition not lovely, and should make themselves as small as possible, not draw attention to any deceitful loveliness.
The fact that popular culture foistered a whole different set of expectations on me as a girl, and then as a woman, didn't protect me from familial expectations.
I think that's a world away from the friend you describe, but I do wonder if the people commenting aren't observing more subtle pressure she's exerting on her girl children? We obviously can't ever avoid doing this as parents - everyone has preferences and values close to their heart and kids want their parents to be proud of them.
But a parent saying, "my way is the neutral way," is a bit of a red flag to me (there is no neutral way, we just muddle through and hope our own excesses are balanced out by other loving influences).

But what you suggested was 'have a productive discussion, and reassure them that there’s no need to be concerned or whatever they’re feeling and that she’s female'. I absolutely don't think that kind of public rudeness, not to mention obnoxious policing of women who aren't performing femininity well enough, deserves 'reassurance' or 'discussion' or any kind of validation.

‘Did you mean to be so rude’ and walking away is not aggressive though - and saying ‘I’m female’ is factual, not kind.

Strong disagree. No way is the OP's daughter obliged to be kind and focus on making rude strangers feel better about themselves by talking them through her body and personal choices. Definitely vote in favour of 'did you mean to be so rude' and walk away.

I really dislike the fact that anything a woman does with her appearance is 'a statement' - dyeing your hair, not shaving your legs, losing weight, putting on weight, building muscle, wearing a dress.. .

I've had people comment about all these things in a way I don't think they would for a bloke.

I'm not making a feminist statement, I just can't be arsed to shave / enjoy exercise / have eaten a lot of cakes recently etc.

This has happened to my niece (13) many times, for the same reasons. My son (13) and her are close. People frequently call them 'young lads' etc when they are out and about. Even teachers at their school! Really annoying.
My son makes a joke of it and says in a really over the top camp voice 'Are you assuming my gender. Cos that's offensive.' It takes the pressure off it for both of them.
Could work said by a singular girl too. I love it cos its taking the piss out of the gender nonsense that gets thrown at them all the time at school.
Luckily my son is not captured by it all al and can see beyond the sterotypical depiction of men/ women the trans movement leans into.

This happened constantly to my friend until she grew her hair into a more feminine longer style. Is that something she would consider?

Otherwise it's just something she will have to contend with. If ot doesn't bother her then why are you worried?

Interesting read. My DD14 has had the same thing and she was quite upset about it. (The person who thought she was a boy was American and I do wonder whether that made a difference - perhaps they thought they were being inclusive or something?) She is already super self-conscious about her height and doesnt need this too!

I was often assumed to be a boy when I was a teenager in the 80s/90s so it’s definitely not a new thing! I used to find it quite distressing mostly because I was quite awkward and shy and wasn’t sure whether I was meant to correct people.

Ive had people on MN tell this didn’t happen because people can “always tell” by the way.

It find it troubling that a women or girls are assumed to be making a statement if they do not want long hair. I have worn my hair short most of my adult life and DH is fine with it. I am bothered when people assume I am doing it to send a message.

I guess there's so many trans/nb kids around now. So if she dresses like a boy, has short hair and low voice, then I guess they're assuming that whereas in the past it would just be she looked like a bio boy.
I'd say it will decrease as she gets older. I know this is a bit different but I was regularly, daily confused for a boy by strangers at primary school age. Short hair, boyish clothes a lot of the time. It did annoy me a bit, but not enough to make me don a pink dress! One horrible old bloke with a moustache in a cafe told me off once as 'young man'. I cheekily quipped back 'oh, sorry Madam' lol.
If anyone does misgender her just firmly correct them 'no, I'm female/No, I'm a 'she'.' then move on the convo. Is her name also a bit unisex? That could add to it I suppose. It's good she's not bothered by it.

I disagree - I don’t think getting aggressive or demanding to know why they’re asking serves any purpose. Women are understandably very upset/angry/fearful/etc of males forcing themselves into female spaces - it’s far better imo for the OP’s DD to have a productive discussion, and reassure them that there’s no need to be concerned or whatever they’re feeling and that she’s female.

We shouldn’t be having to have this conversation in women’s spaces of course, but the TRAs have caused this to happen.