"Teachers to tell children Gender Ideology is a contested belief"

And this is all totally different to teaching children you can be born in the wrong body, which is particularly awful to teach if there are any disabled children in the class.

I don't think it follows that the best place to do this is in general lessons in school though. It could be via parents it could be more targeted to children who are more likely to be having sex. There could be signposting to the school nurse / pastoral if children need help and information/

It's isn't a good argument that school lessons should always be geared to the children at most risk, it's not fair on the other children.

So were schools explicitly told they had to include trans in sex ed? When did it creep in, who put it there, why did teachers and schools agree to include it, why don't more exclude it?

Schools, governors and teachers are supposed to safeguard children. Why aren't they? Why do they lie to them and indulge this fantasy?

Also the work my dm was involved with was largely children of the same age in relationships. As it will be now. If children are going to be having sex at 12/13 they need to know about contraception before that.

It's naive to think that children are not having sex below the age of consent @MrsOvertonsWindow. It is a myth that talking about it is encouraging it. It is living in the real world. My dm was very much involved in her work in the 1980s with "underage mums". We had highest rates in Europe.

To address a PP comment about concern for contraception not being taught until later secondary school, currently the case is that most secondary schools do not teach contraception until at least year 9 (13-14 years) in RSE. It is then covered in more detail in year 10 in Science lessons, and again in year 10 RSE.

Reproduction (puberty, organs, functions, fertilisation, pregnancy and birth) are taught in year 7 Science (11-12) and contraception is mentioned only once, and in no detail. My school also have a lesson we use when discussing the HPV vaccine, in year 8, where barrier methods are mentioned.

None of our feeder primary schools cover contraception. Almost all of them teach gender identity/gender reassignment.

Waves!

Someone locally found me out

Agree that the conflation of sex ed with gender ideology is completely disingenuous. The latter has nothing to do with the former; the clue is the word “ideology”. If the adults in charge conflate the issues or appear not to understand the crucial differences correctly or teach them as part of the same topic, then what chances do school children have of trying to work out what is fact and what is bollox fiction?

It'a a tricky one but as the age of consent is 16, we need to ask what is it that 11 & 12 year olds need to know about sex? Teaching sex ed is complex - an average class of 11 or 12 years olds will have some children who are mentally and emotionally still at primary level with others having been exposed to age inappropriate material from a frighteningly early age. You have to be conservative (with a small c) in teaching this. Try to teach at an age appropriate level.
The assumption that as a small % of young children have been groomed, abused & are therefore sexually active is not the benchmark for what you teach all 11 & 12 year olds. No matter what Steve Chalke would like to happen.

Why does the BBC constantly platform such mediocre men who have unlimited arrogance and talk over women?

Well it was another child showing him porn, apparently. He went on to say that this was in black and white and a magazine, so obvs online stuff is worse. Yes, that's why primary aged children aren't allowed access, utter fool.

If this happened at my DD's school it would be considered a safeguarding incident at the very least and likely a referral to MASH and discussion with parents of child with the porn magazine (AT AGE 8!!).

I'm fairly sure if my child was shown something like that they'd come to me, and I would immediately report to the school (and that's assuming the child is only showing one other child). Did Chalke not tell his parents? What happened as a result? It's a safeguarding incident!

If Chalke thinks teachers also aren't aware if there are rumours about the facts of life being spread among students he has no clue.

If there has been a safeguarding failure and teachers need to step in to correct wrong facts having been given that's a different thing than introducing the subject at an inappropriately early age.

Haven’t RTFT but thank God regarding the new guidelines.

Emma Barnett, your debut on R4 this morning was fantastic! Thank you for reading out the listener from Nottingham’s comment just after 8.30 - it was spot on. You’re a really welcome breath of fresh air on the programme. I’m sure you’re on here somewhere ☺️

While the gender stuff is encouraging, I'm very much concerned about other bits such as contraception not being taught until aged 13. There's been a line for decades that some like to push that if you talk about contraception then young people will start to have sex. This kind of attitude contributed to the U.K. having high rates of teenage pregnancies in the 1980s for example.

Then an offence was committed. Is this bloke arguing for the repeal of the Sexual Offences Act? And why?

One line of argument beloved of those wanting to break down boudaries around children is to say that if a safeguarding measure cannot be guaranteed as being 100% effective in all circumstances, you might as well put it in the bin.

Very few people are saying they shouldn't be told scientific facts about reproduction and puberty at the end of primary (whether by parents or the school). What they're arguing about is all the other crap that has gone on.

It was such a journalistic bin fire. Lack of understanding of basic facts about what actually happens and a non -realistic polarisation of debate.

It's also as if Chalke has lived under a rock recently (hmm?) with no knowledge of the Online safety act and all the charities and organisations pushing for greater controls on children's internet usage. The work of parents like Ian Russell and Esther Ghey to restrict social media access / online access to children.

I hate this 'oh they're going to be exposed to the WORST POSSIBLE PORN/ THINGS online anyway so let's GET IN EARLY!' approach. Anyone saying this needs their hard drive checking.

No, many - I would argue most (particularly at primary age) children are NOT exposed to this stuff at a young age and if you introduce it to THEM you are committing child abuse.

Christ on a bike that Jeremy Vine show was terrible.
Steve Chalke was brought on to advocate for showing porn to kids as far as I can tell - because he was shown inappropriate sexual material age 8 we need to talk about sex to all 8 year olds. Just because he was subject to a safeguarding failure we should just throw safeguarding out the window? Yeah, not at all dodgy. Vine was useless, and Chalke just talked over the woman trying to give the other view. Complete bollocks.

I see you Steve Chalke, and I don't trust you.

He also said all children are on the internet all the time - well, I have no doubt that might suit Chalke but that's utter bollocks which Vine didn't push back against. There's a growing movement not to allow smartphones for children and I don't know a single primary aged child who has access to the internet without an adult present. Neither of my children had / have internet connected devices until the age of 12. And even then I have strict restriction and a way I can monitor usage remotely.

Most teachers know children having unfettered access to the internet is a big safeguarding red flag - particularly at primary.

And honestly, speaking as a school governor, schools cannot afford these private companies and the only reason they're using them is because teachers are so stretched. It's the perfect storm for bad actors to insinuate their way into schools. It's a safeguarding risk.

Something that is freely available from government would be much better and ensure there is equality among what is taught to students as well. It is not fair that some students are told utter politically motivated lies or - in the worst case - inappropriate sexual content that would be considered abusive under KCSIE.

Selective memory!
Until 2022, Ofsted were downgrading primary schools for (amongst other things) not teaching gender identity. Then complaints from Stonewall to Ofsted complaining they weren't talking enough to primary children about this were leaked to the Telegraph.
As soon as an embarrassed Ofsted were outed for taking directions from Stonewall, they abandoned being a diversity champion & did a silent reverse ferret. Until then they were actively telling all schools to teach this nonsense.

Unbelievable that Headteachers have no memory of all this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/18/ofsted-cites-lack-gender-identity-lessons-factor-primary-school/

Separate the trans out, don't include it under 'sex' education because it isn't. Include in a section about beliefs with religion etc Also agree with this.

This issue is going to be discussed on Jeremy Vine on R2 at 12 if anyone's interested

Frankly we need someone centrally to work with reputable experts and create materials that schools must use. Evidently schools are strapped for cash but can afford to spend out on private companies producing this crap! Why is this allowed?

Absolutely this. We need a proper curriculum for this., that teachers can pick up and use. Politically and ideologically motivated groups should have not role in teaching in schools.

Frankly we need someone centrally to work with reputable experts and create materials that schools must use. Evidently schools are strapped for cash but can afford to spend out on private companies producing this crap! Why is this allowed?

We currently have teachers, some of whom are so unprofessional that they collude with students and affirm you can change your sex and say 'yes, we'll call you by x name and will/lie to your parents. We also have religious schools who won't teach what they are supposed to. We need some adults in the room.

Separate the trans out, don't include it under 'sex' education because it isn't. Include in a section about beliefs with religion etc,

So glad my children aren't at school any more,