Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 14:06

"Nemo" is a Latin word meaning 'no-one', 'nobody'.

Make of that what you will.

thirdfiddle · 12/05/2024 13:59

Is they called Nemo because they identifies as a clownfish? ETA, i was a bit worried this would be taken as pisstaking and get me strikes, but looking at the link above, it appears it is actually true.

The sad thing is there /is/ liberation in breaking the code. Breaking the code is saying sod this gender game, I can be a man and wear pink feathers if I damn well please. What Nemo has done is the ultimate in deferring to the code by agreeing that not following the code sufficiently means they is not a man at all.

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 13:50

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:40

Yes, 'unsexed' would be a lot more logical (inasmuch as any of this can ever be). If you claim not to be male or female, you must be without sex.

And considering that, in English, we only ever use 'they' in the singular to refer to a person of as-yet-unknown sex and not a sexless subject, I wonder why there isn't more clamouring to be referred to as 'it' - purely from a grammatical pov?

Unfortunately 'it' has become associated in English with inanimate objects.

Doesn't happen in languages where inanimate objects have grammatical genders, of course.

Which just goes to show how Anglocentric gender ideology is. Cultural imperialism, much?

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:47

I don't get how changing your label or pronouns can so magically transform your life for the better in any way.

If you're a single mum called Julie, stuck in a grotty overpriced rental place in a crime-ridden area, on a zero-hours contract and struggling with various debilitating health problems... how on earth does telling everybody that you now want to be called Laura (or indeed Brian) instead suddenly make all of that bad stuff just simply go away?

OP posts:
SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:40

MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:22

I like "unsexed" I think that works.

Formally: "Theydyies and Gentlethem"
Or is that still too binary? 🤣

Yes, 'unsexed' would be a lot more logical (inasmuch as any of this can ever be). If you claim not to be male or female, you must be without sex.

And considering that, in English, we only ever use 'they' in the singular to refer to a person of as-yet-unknown sex and not a sexless subject, I wonder why there isn't more clamouring to be referred to as 'it' - purely from a grammatical pov?

OP posts:
Beamur · 12/05/2024 13:40

Just goes to show how hard wired our ability to correctly sex an individual goes.
Even people trying really hard to respect neutral or incongruous pronouns slip up.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:36

Slightly off-topic, but I did chuckle at Graham's description of Nemo's big turntable thing as "A kind of lazy Susan; well, actually, a very overworked Susan - an exhausted Susan, if you will!"

All assuming that it didn't actually identify as a Simon or a (non-sex-specific) Sam instead...

OP posts:
MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:31

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 13:30

Ah right. I have no interest in Eurovision so I didn't know.

SidewaysOtter · 12/05/2024 13:24

I knew there'd be a load of this as soon as the Ireland entry whipped off her dress to reveal a trans flag. And then Switzerland started draping a non-binary flag around, although that may have been more to do with his skirt being VERY short and his crotch being on full view.

As for pronouns/they-themming, it’s a combination of needing to elevate themselves to Special Person status combined with the need to take up other people’s mental space. Even worse when they have split pronouns (“My pronouns are he/they!”) and you have to work out which way round they go.

Fuck off with that shite. You’re not special and no-one cares how you’d like to be referred to.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:22

MagpiePi · 12/05/2024 10:20

I like this response:

I like "unsexed" I think that works.

Formally: "Theydyies and Gentlethem"
Or is that still too binary? 🤣

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:22

OhPea · 12/05/2024 13:08

Whenever I see “xxxxx uses they/them pronouns” I feel it should be changed to “xxxxx demands others refer to them with they/them pronouns”. It’s more accurate. (Obviously I would prefer we ignored it completely).

Yes, absolutely. How else are you supposed to respond to that?

If somebody introduces you to a new person - "This is Phil and he's a keen sky-diver" - is that just giving you a bit of personal info about Phil, or is it an order that you too are now expected to strap on your parachute and get on the plane, to avoid upsetting Phil if he realises that not everybody is exactly like him?

OP posts:
MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:18

Thingybob · 12/05/2024 08:36

So what’s new? What’s special about these people? And why are we expected to pretend

Non binary people have been "to hell and back" before breaking "the code" to find their "kingdom come" where they are not another one or zero.

How can you or Graham Norton not see that?

That's some impressive word salad even for this forum 🤣

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:18

FelineGood76 · 12/05/2024 12:50

IW was probably sitting on the edge of theys seat with a notepad and pen the whole time waiting on the inevitable shite they could complain about.

I think that's the crux of it. There probably are people who identify as NB who prefer to be referred to as 'they', but who totally understand that not everybody will be on board with that and will just use standard sex-based pronouns instead.

However, it's the feeling that so many of them are just wanting to make you feel nervous and awkward all the time and desperately waiting to berate, smear and humiliate you for forgetting to pointedly ignore instructions that happen not to begin with 'Simon says'.

OP posts:
TheCoolOliveBalonz · 12/05/2024 13:14

I saw two good old fashioned goths yesterday (female). I was really heartened!

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:42

AIBU thread on non binary identities has just been taken down for too many posts breaking talk guidelines.

Hmm, interesting - I didn't catch that one in time.

Personally speaking, my purpose is not to deny people the right to label themselves however they like and believe whatever they want about themselves - but it's the insistence that everybody else go along with it as though it's established fact, against all logic and natural instincts.

You can genuinely believe that you're the King or Queen (or indeed a NB-equivalent - maybe 'Quing'?), but that doesn't make other people bad, bigoted or hateful if they refuse (or even just forget sometimes) to address you as 'Your Majesty' every single time they speak to or about you.

OP posts:
OhPea · 12/05/2024 13:08

Whenever I see “xxxxx uses they/them pronouns” I feel it should be changed to “xxxxx demands others refer to them with they/them pronouns”. It’s more accurate. (Obviously I would prefer we ignored it completely).

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 12:56

FrancescaContini · 12/05/2024 08:14

But male since a few weeks in utero. He’ll always be male. Everyone sees that he’s male.

Absolutely. I live in Scotland so blokes in kilts are still blokes.

Truthlikeness · 12/05/2024 12:55

Justme56 · 12/05/2024 11:42

I think what shocks me more than just the pronouns is that somewhere along the line somebody/somewhere has decided that there is such a thing as gender affirming surgery to create a so called non binary body.

And it often seems to tend towards the male - removal of breasts and testosterone to lower voice, increase body hair etc...

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 12:55

powershowerforanhour · 12/05/2024 11:08

"He's been non binary since November 2023 apparently."

He kind of had to be, to be the "first" something or other to win. Dana International, who won it 26 years ago, is trans; and Conchita, who won it 10 years ago, is a gay drag queen. So what's a bloke in a dress to do, to avoid seeming old hat?

Conchita had a lovely red dress on during the interval act - many of the female performers looked like they were inspired by the film Metropolis

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:52

Exactly. Pure attention seeking.

FelineGood76 · 12/05/2024 12:50

IW was probably sitting on the edge of theys seat with a notepad and pen the whole time waiting on the inevitable shite they could complain about.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:42

AIBU thread on non binary identities has just been taken down for too many posts breaking talk guidelines.

Aussiegold · 12/05/2024 12:34

Sorry, can't seem to do the link, but I see IW is unhappy about misgendering on Twitter, wonder if Graham Norton will apologise?

Swipe left for the next trending thread