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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

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SwedishKvinnaboske · 13/05/2024 18:48

BonzoGates · 13/05/2024 14:02

Thanks - it was very awkward at the time. I genuinely thought I must have done something very wrong as the Correcter was being very off with me. It felt like bullying.

The reason it felt like bullying is because that's exactly what it is.

The self-appointed 'correcters' have arbitrarily decided that they are right and that you are simply wrong, no question.

It just does not even figure with them as a slight possibility that you may well know that a person has asked/demanded people use unusual pronouns for them, but you have decided that you don't share their beliefs and thus do not wish to entertain their requests.

It's kind of like the equivalent of if, say, Kelloggs had lots of prime-time adverts for their cereals (all well and good) but then somehow found out that you had decided to buy a different brand of cereal - or indeed didn't want to buy cereal at all. Then, instead of them just being a bit disappointed that you hadn't chosen to give them a sale, they sent a representative to your door to check that you'd seen the adverts, and that you understood their message that they were telling you that you needed to buy their products, and to ask what your problem was, patronisingly see if they could 'help' you to make the 'necessary' purchase and tell you they would monitor you and check back later, to make sure that you had seen the error of your ways and were now going to do the 'correct' thing.

There's nothing wrong with telling people what you would like them to do, but unless you are their employer or the government, it is then entirely their choice how they respond to that request.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/05/2024 18:37

nepeta · 13/05/2024 17:55

Traditionally, in languages which have sexed third person singular pronouns they just informed others of the sex of the person. If doing this is something we need to do, from a wider philosophical point of view would be an interesting debate. Many languages do just fine without having two pronouns for the third person singular.

But the debate now is different: If some people are now 'they', yet they are still either male or female, what is the meaning of telling others that your pronouns are, say, he/him?

You are no longer signaling your sex. So what are you signaling? That you love male gender roles, rules, and stereotypes for yourself?

The nonbinary category puts this into stark light, because it really does suggest that everyone who is not nonbinary is a lover of sexist stereotypes attached to their sex. I find this somewhat suffocating, because I don't share a love of those stereotypes for myself.

And I, at least, want to know if those who identify as nonbinary expect not to be affected by societal sexism while others are to be seen as prey for it. Or what?

From another angle, what do the two nonbinary singers have in common that they don't share with people of their own sex? Which of the two would be paid more in some job? Which of the two is most likely to be sexually assaulted?

Or is it simply that they both want to be seen different from the masses?

I understand that there are many young people who pick 'nonbinary' do so to avoid many of the more extreme stereotypes the society attaches to being female (we are seen as sexual and fertility commodities by so many) or male (men are seen as violent oppressors by some), and that some do it because of mental suffering of various kinds.

But still. This choice changes the world for all of us, often in negative ways, and it would be good to be told exactly why we should go along with it when there are good alternatives to it. Better ones, even, in feminist activism, at least.

Exactly this.

Until about five minutes ago we used the pronouns "she" for a woman/female person and "he" for a man/male person. Since we can all see with our own eyes whether someone is a male or female, there was never any need to tell people what pronouns to use because they could work it out for themselves based on what they could see with their own eyes.

When you tell someone "your pronouns", you are signaling that you believe that whether someone is a man or a woman has nothing to do with their sex and everything to do with their identity, and that some people are neither a woman nor a man because they do not identify as either.

(Incidentally, the entire concept of preferred pronouns disproves the batshit claim that we can't tell what sex someone is. If we couldn't tell what sex someone was, we would either be calling everyone "they" or we would already be calling trans people by the pronouns corresponding to their gender identity because that is what we would be seeing.)

When you tell me to refer to a male person as "she" or an unambiguously male or female person as "they", you are telling me I must describe the world according to your belief system rather than my own. But I don't like your belief system. I find it regressive and sexist. I don't want to define men and women according to stereotypes, neither do I believe it is possible to identify out of sex based oppression. I certainly don't believe I share any kind of identity with trans women. I just want to be allowed to have, and use, words for "male people" and "female people". But right now, refusing to describe the world according to your belief system can have serious consequences for me.

Waitwhat23 · 13/05/2024 18:14

SidewaysOtter · 13/05/2024 14:25

That's the one. Which got captioned on Twitter as "Bloody hell Salome, not again!" Grin

My personal favourite version

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality
nepeta · 13/05/2024 17:55

Traditionally, in languages which have sexed third person singular pronouns they just informed others of the sex of the person. If doing this is something we need to do, from a wider philosophical point of view would be an interesting debate. Many languages do just fine without having two pronouns for the third person singular.

But the debate now is different: If some people are now 'they', yet they are still either male or female, what is the meaning of telling others that your pronouns are, say, he/him?

You are no longer signaling your sex. So what are you signaling? That you love male gender roles, rules, and stereotypes for yourself?

The nonbinary category puts this into stark light, because it really does suggest that everyone who is not nonbinary is a lover of sexist stereotypes attached to their sex. I find this somewhat suffocating, because I don't share a love of those stereotypes for myself.

And I, at least, want to know if those who identify as nonbinary expect not to be affected by societal sexism while others are to be seen as prey for it. Or what?

From another angle, what do the two nonbinary singers have in common that they don't share with people of their own sex? Which of the two would be paid more in some job? Which of the two is most likely to be sexually assaulted?

Or is it simply that they both want to be seen different from the masses?

I understand that there are many young people who pick 'nonbinary' do so to avoid many of the more extreme stereotypes the society attaches to being female (we are seen as sexual and fertility commodities by so many) or male (men are seen as violent oppressors by some), and that some do it because of mental suffering of various kinds.

But still. This choice changes the world for all of us, often in negative ways, and it would be good to be told exactly why we should go along with it when there are good alternatives to it. Better ones, even, in feminist activism, at least.

Chersfrozenface · 13/05/2024 15:33

But in non-celebrity daily life, as 'you' in english is non-gendered, most non-binary specials will tragically never find out how you refer to them when they're not around.

Except that, as in a PP's post, their "allies" and sycophants will scold you for referring to them with the wrong pronouns and doubtless report back to them what a hateful bigot you are. And if it's at work in a captured organisation, quite possibly get you reported to HR.

CantDealwithChristmas · 13/05/2024 15:28

I always think the pronoun thing is stupid because realistically how often do you refer to a person in the third person when you're talking to them, or talking about them when they're in the same room?

Obviously the Eurovision scenario is a very different one. But in non-celebrity daily life, as 'you' in english is non-gendered, most non-binary specials will tragically never find out how you refer to them when they're not around.

GameBoy · 13/05/2024 15:17

<Minor thread derail>
I do creative writing and submit short stories/ first chapters etc to competitions. In recent years I have seriously wondered if I should just declare myself non-binary as it would open up so many more opportunities to me, and as far as I can see, wouldn't necessarily need to change my life in any way.

SandyThumb · 13/05/2024 15:13

Chersfrozenface · 13/05/2024 15:05

The Swiss national broadcaster SRG SSR organises the process for choosing Switzerland's entry and since 2019 has used the internal selection method.
SRG SSR confirmed its intention to participate at the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 on 7 July 2023 and announced the artist and song it was sending on 29 February 2024.

Interesting timings altogether.

"Nemo and the song "The Code" were internally selected out of more than 400 songs submitted to the Swiss broadcaster. Five artists and songs were invited to perform at auditions in Zurich back in December 2023."

https://eurovisionworld.com/esc/switzerland-nemo-releases-the-code-for-eurovision-2024

Switzerland: Nemo to Eurovision 2024 – Listen to "The Code"

We now know who will be waving the Swiss flag at Eurovision 2024: It's Nemo with the song "The Code." Take a listen to the song here

https://eurovisionworld.com/esc/switzerland-nemo-releases-the-code-for-eurovision-2024

Chersfrozenface · 13/05/2024 15:05

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 13/05/2024 14:40

‘. Back to Eurovision - if you look at Nemo's Instagram, Nemo looks much more male/camp/gay historically (especially in tagged photos). Perhaps they 'found' their non-binary-ness just in time for Eurovision?’

November 2023 ( so six months) according to their biography.

The Swiss national broadcaster SRG SSR organises the process for choosing Switzerland's entry and since 2019 has used the internal selection method.
SRG SSR confirmed its intention to participate at the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 on 7 July 2023 and announced the artist and song it was sending on 29 February 2024.

Interesting timings altogether.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/05/2024 15:01

I find that breathtakingly arrogant and naive of Bambie and insulting and offensive to me as a woman

Me too! It makes me angry. How fucking dare she think that? And, pertinently, she who looked like a normal woman 5 minutes ago and whose act has ripped off a genuinely talented woman. It looks like she’s just chosen non-binary and her rip-off look to get attention. Indeed, in an earlier interview, she said something like she always wanted to be a star.

Actually, Bambie (or Barbie, as auto-correct slyly renamed her 😀) is just pushing regressive stereotypes because she thinks that you can’t look, do, be those things when you’re ‘only’ a woman.

OhcantthInkofaname · 13/05/2024 14:49

SwedishKvinnaboske ·Thank you. I refuse to use plural pronouns for single individuals. I tend to remove those people from my life.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 13/05/2024 14:40

‘. Back to Eurovision - if you look at Nemo's Instagram, Nemo looks much more male/camp/gay historically (especially in tagged photos). Perhaps they 'found' their non-binary-ness just in time for Eurovision?’

November 2023 ( so six months) according to their biography.

SidewaysOtter · 13/05/2024 14:37

Does that numpties T-shirt say something about "dead trans kids"?

It said "No More Dead Trans Kids".

Citation needed...

SidewaysOtter · 13/05/2024 14:25

Waitwhat23 · 13/05/2024 14:17

This numpty?

That's the one. Which got captioned on Twitter as "Bloody hell Salome, not again!" Grin

HootyMcBooby · 13/05/2024 14:25

Does that numpties T-shirt say something about "dead trans kids"?

HAD to share this with you all!

Hilarious and absolutely true.

About Trans Kids...

#ad (this is the most important PSA you'll ever see)thank you to HALLOW for sponsoring this, cuz I have a feeling youtube isn't gonna love it! get a free 3 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoYnfLDlOMI

Ofcourseshecan · 13/05/2024 14:20

PickleC · 12/05/2024 17:06

With NBs it all just feels so massively regressive.

Wear what you want, be that clothes, or makeup or not, long or short hair, work in the roughest job imaginable, a caring role, scientist or beautician, watch football, drink pints, love romcoms and flower arranging. Be who you want to be. Make everything open to everyone. No restrictions.

But I cannot see how effectively leaning into the stereotypes by saying that you reject what society expects of a man/woman and so that obviously must mean you aren't one helps either you or anyone else.

It reinforces stereotypes for everyone when we should actually have discarded them and sets you up for a life of misgendering/correctly sexing. It all honestly feels like steps back from where we were heading 20 ... 30 years back.

You’re so right. I genuinely can’t understand why this isn’t clear to all adults.

Or maybe it is clear. But it’s very much in misogynists’ interests to pretend it isn’t.

SandyThumb · 13/05/2024 14:19

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2024 14:11

She says that non-binary seems to be taking over from trans as the new 'edgy' label that makes the kids cool and different but basically requires minimum commitment/ no cutting off tits/ taking damaging hormones and allows you to switch between looks and styles as you see fit (which, of course, is fine).

That sounds more like a normal, healthy teen trend to me. If 'trans' can morph into this then it'll be better all round for everyone.

Totally agree!

Ofcourseshecan · 13/05/2024 14:17

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2024 14:11

She says that non-binary seems to be taking over from trans as the new 'edgy' label that makes the kids cool and different but basically requires minimum commitment/ no cutting off tits/ taking damaging hormones and allows you to switch between looks and styles as you see fit (which, of course, is fine).

That sounds more like a normal, healthy teen trend to me. If 'trans' can morph into this then it'll be better all round for everyone.

I agree. I hope kids are using this as a way to slip out of the trans cult.

Waitwhat23 · 13/05/2024 14:17

SidewaysOtter · 13/05/2024 11:13

Bambie Thug reminds me of the woman who invaded Kathleen Stock's speech at the Oxford Union and sat there, having glued herself to the floor, looking like an absolute plum.

I should imagine both of them are similarly annoying, as is Greta Thunberg who has always got right on my tits with her Causes.

This numpty?

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality
Ofcourseshecan · 13/05/2024 14:15

BonzoGates · 13/05/2024 10:23

Well no - you can tell someone's sex so of course you use sex based pronouns.

Communication is complex for me as I'm very hard of hearing and responding to someone relies on a lot of autopilot as I'm often still working out what they've just said. I'm also hyper visual so if someone looks female that's going to be coded into a response.

It's not remotely similar to changing to a new year or using a new surname.

Exactly. Life’s challenging enough already when you have a disability. I’ll always make an effort for someone with special needs, but not for someone who’s telling me to talk rubbish.

And as a PP says Compelled language is the start of a very slippery slope. We are already about halfway down that slope and I have no intention of freefalling to the bottom.

BonzoGates · 13/05/2024 14:15

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2024 14:11

She says that non-binary seems to be taking over from trans as the new 'edgy' label that makes the kids cool and different but basically requires minimum commitment/ no cutting off tits/ taking damaging hormones and allows you to switch between looks and styles as you see fit (which, of course, is fine).

That sounds more like a normal, healthy teen trend to me. If 'trans' can morph into this then it'll be better all round for everyone.

Hear Hear.

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2024 14:11

She says that non-binary seems to be taking over from trans as the new 'edgy' label that makes the kids cool and different but basically requires minimum commitment/ no cutting off tits/ taking damaging hormones and allows you to switch between looks and styles as you see fit (which, of course, is fine).

That sounds more like a normal, healthy teen trend to me. If 'trans' can morph into this then it'll be better all round for everyone.

SandyThumb · 13/05/2024 14:08

Was talking to my friend who has young teenage girls about this. She tends to be supportive/ positive as one of her daughters is neurodiverse and clearly working out her sexuality, however occasionally my friend 'let's slip' a bit what she really thinks.

She says that non-binary seems to be taking over from trans as the new 'edgy' label that makes the kids cool and different but basically requires minimum commitment/ no cutting off tits/ taking damaging hormones and allows you to switch between looks and styles as you see fit (which, of course, is fine).

She commented that even her daughters had observed how a number of celebs have declared they are non-binary as a way of attracting attention/ adding difference/ generating PR/ gaining access to schemes and awards for 'underrepresented groups'.
Actor Emma Corrin was mentioned - The Crown raised her to fame from nowhere then suddenly she was the new 'They' around town being feted by Vanity Fair etc.

Back to Eurovision - if you look at Nemo's Instagram, Nemo looks much more male/camp/gay historically (especially in tagged photos). Perhaps they 'found' their non-binary-ness just in time for Eurovision?

Also, I was curious about who the girl in the pink suit was sitting next to him as the results came in - looked like a twin sister! Turns out it is his sister, Ella Mettler, but younger, and she is a stylist/photographer who has managed all his look/brand/PR etc.

I think the pink, fluffy, NB Nemo persona is definitely a careful curating of the Nemo 'brand' for Eurovision.

BonzoGates · 13/05/2024 14:02

SwedishKvinnaboske · 13/05/2024 13:22

Eejit that I am and with the bloody hearing loss I thought she'd left for Canada with a partner and couldn't work out what the glaring was about. I only worked it out afterwards.

It wasn't you who were the eejit...

It's also the anger and shaming that you get for not knowing. If you'd make a mistake and discovered that the woman you'd thought was Susie all along was actually named Denise, people would laugh about it with you in a good-natured way - nobody would dream of glaring at you for being mistaken.

Edited

Thanks - it was very awkward at the time. I genuinely thought I must have done something very wrong as the Correcter was being very off with me. It felt like bullying.

CantDealwithChristmas · 13/05/2024 13:53

It's similar to the tactics used by domestic abusers

Domestic abusers only sporadically have to resort to actual violence. Majority of the time they control their victim with the FEAR of violence if they 'do something wrong'

This keeps the victim in a state of cortisol heightened stress at all times, which over time, wears down their mental and ohysical health

In a similar way, extreme transgenderists control everyone around them by demanding that they police and contort their language for fear of losing their livelihoods and/or reputation