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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender-neutral lavatories banned in new-build restaurants and offices

154 replies

IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 00:27

The new legislation applies to commercial properties as well as those undergoing ‘major refurbishment’

Bars, restaurants and offices will be barred from creating new premises with gender-neutral lavatories, under changes to the law to take effect later this year.

In a move which ministers said would increase the “safety, privacy and dignity” of women, new non-domestic buildings will be required to include separate male and female lavatories.

Those that cannot do so will have to install so-called universal facilities, which include a lavatory, wash basin and hand dryer behind a lockable door.

As well as affecting all new commercial buildings, the measure will also apply to businesses and hospitality venues undertaking “major refurbishment”

Article continues at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-neutral-lavatories-banned-toilet-commercial-buildings-trans-zzsg826st
and can be read at https://archive.ph/FQlr2

I was thinking this means it will now be the law, but in fact means that a bill to achieve this will only be presented (this week?)

From the Government statement:

Changes to building regulations will ensure that:

  • Separate single-sex toilets facilities are provided for men and women;
  • Self-contained, universal toilets may be provided in addition to single-sex toilets, where space allows;
  • Self-contained universal toilets may be provided instead of single-sex toilets only where lack of space reasonably precludes provision of single-sex toilet accommodation.

Read full statement at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-lay-new-law-to-halt-the-march-of-gender-neutral-toilets-in-buildings

Gender-neutral lavatories banned in new-build restaurants and offices

The new legislation applies to commercial properties as well as those undergoing ‘major refurbishment’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-neutral-lavatories-banned-toilet-commercial-buildings-trans-zzsg826st

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
agent765 · 06/05/2024 23:05

Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 12:15

I would add to this. In an ideal world there would also be two more: single sex disabled toilets, accessed via single sex toilets.

This is because disabled people have the risks of their toilet being mixed sex already. A disproportionate amount of sexual assaults happen in disabled toilets as they are private and enclosed.

And they have the same issues as women have found when using mixed toilets - seat up, piss everywhere, including all down the front of the pan. And if the emergency cord is on the floor where it's meant to be it will be in a puddle of piss.

I now have to use them, unfortunately. I see able-bodied men (I'd say maybe they have a hidden disability but it's unlikely) jauntily walking away from them, sometimes zipping up. I inwardly groan at the mess that will face me there and the lack of choice available to me to find another one.

Not a moan about having to use them, just that I'd like to add my name to the ideal world dream of single-sex disabled loos.

agent765 · 06/05/2024 22:34

Theeyeballsinthesky · 06/05/2024 11:23

Odd isn’t it how until a few years ago men even the ones who like to wear dresses could be generally trusted to keep the fuck out of women’s toilets and if they were there, ppl would tell them to get lost/call security/police

and now it’s “oh no we couldn’t manage it, I mean how could we tell we’d have to inspect what’s in people’s pants”

I walked into the Ladies in a M&S store a year or so before Covid to find a man in a dress with it lifted up to present his genitals to everyone in there.

Some men literally can't keep it in their pants.

agent765 · 06/05/2024 22:12

endofthelinefinally · 06/05/2024 08:06

I rarely listen to the radio this early, but Matthew Wright is being absolutely vile about this on LBC this morning. What a rude person he is. Trotting out the rubbish about having a gender neutral toilet in his own house. He is very prone to interrupt and talk over his guests while telling them to keep quiet.

Yeah. It's his go-to argument.

He blathers on about his daughter a lot. Someone needs to ask him how he'd feel if his daughter had to share a public toilet with an aggressive TW.

Maybe the penny might drop he's spouting crap then.

IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 22:09

I was just thinking that if they even start on this legislation it will probably be the most "gender critical" legislation the Tories have put forward.

But unfortunately not only will it be their first it will also be their last. Just hope it passes before Labour gets in.

Totally unrealistic to think they will also find time to bring forward legislation to ammend the EA. If they were going to do it, it would need to have gone through as many stages as this one has.

Sad
OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 22:05

re schools as they have been mentioned - the article says

There will be exemptions in the regulations for schools, residential rooms in care homes and premises used mainly for early years provision.

Separate facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years-old or over must already be provided in schools, except where it is in a room which can be secured from the inside and is for one pupil at a time.

This is the link to guidance on provisions of toilets in schools as writtend by Safe School Alliance
https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/singlesextoiletsfactsheet.pdf

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/singlesextoiletsfactsheet.pdf

OP posts:
BiologicalKitty · 06/05/2024 19:01

I wonder if Liverpool City Council will now offer an apology to Liverpool ReSisters, when one of their members asked for a review before making City building loos "gender neutral" and she was bellowed at by then-mayor, Joe Anderson.

BronteH · 06/05/2024 18:09

IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 00:27

The new legislation applies to commercial properties as well as those undergoing ‘major refurbishment’

Bars, restaurants and offices will be barred from creating new premises with gender-neutral lavatories, under changes to the law to take effect later this year.

In a move which ministers said would increase the “safety, privacy and dignity” of women, new non-domestic buildings will be required to include separate male and female lavatories.

Those that cannot do so will have to install so-called universal facilities, which include a lavatory, wash basin and hand dryer behind a lockable door.

As well as affecting all new commercial buildings, the measure will also apply to businesses and hospitality venues undertaking “major refurbishment”

Article continues at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/gender-neutral-lavatories-banned-toilet-commercial-buildings-trans-zzsg826st
and can be read at https://archive.ph/FQlr2

I was thinking this means it will now be the law, but in fact means that a bill to achieve this will only be presented (this week?)

From the Government statement:

Changes to building regulations will ensure that:

  • Separate single-sex toilets facilities are provided for men and women;
  • Self-contained, universal toilets may be provided in addition to single-sex toilets, where space allows;
  • Self-contained universal toilets may be provided instead of single-sex toilets only where lack of space reasonably precludes provision of single-sex toilet accommodation.

Read full statement at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-lay-new-law-to-halt-the-march-of-gender-neutral-toilets-in-buildings

Of course the term ‘gender-neutral’ for toilets or changing rooms is incoherent gobbledygook.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 06/05/2024 18:02

IBelieveInFerries · 06/05/2024 10:18

As a previous poster has said, this is just a "dead squirrell" strategy to distract from the disastrous election results.

The conservatives have been in office since 2010. All of a sudden they give a shit about womens spaces

That’s not how you spell 🐿

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/05/2024 17:57

Twofifty · 06/05/2024 17:32

I don't see why schools should be exempt from this. Our local secondary has mixed sex open plan toilets with full doors, all sited on a corner so they have two sides of the 'room' open to the corridor. My DD would not consider the school after seeing this, saying what if a friend needed to pass you a sanitary towel under the door, or if you came out of the cubicle with period blood on your hands. We know a girl who goes there who doesn't use the toilet all day.

There's been legislation for years stating that schools MUST provide single sex toilets for all children over the age of 8 .
The problem has been allowing Stonewall and all the trans lobby groups to influence schools and tell them that in the interests of inclusion males must have access to girls who are undressing, using the toilet etc.

Plus companies who install toilets in schools coming up with some unverified "research" stating that mixed sex toilets improve behaviour and encouraging schools to invest in building new mixed sex toilets. Quite a money spinner for them.

mitogoshi · 06/05/2024 17:44

There's provision for universal toilets too which do make sense where there's insufficient space for multiple types of toilet. The devil will be in the final wording! Personally I'd like to see multiple options in the legislation basic on building type and size from a single universal toilet requirement in a corner cafe to a requirement for blocks of male, female. universal (also ideal for dads with potty trained youngsters), standard disabled and full changing places toilet (with hoist) at large shopping centres, services, airports etc. with in between sized buildings needing to work out what's appropriate for their space

Twofifty · 06/05/2024 17:32

I don't see why schools should be exempt from this. Our local secondary has mixed sex open plan toilets with full doors, all sited on a corner so they have two sides of the 'room' open to the corridor. My DD would not consider the school after seeing this, saying what if a friend needed to pass you a sanitary towel under the door, or if you came out of the cubicle with period blood on your hands. We know a girl who goes there who doesn't use the toilet all day.

Harassedevictee · 06/05/2024 17:30

BloodyHellKenAgain · 06/05/2024 17:15

In an ideal world i agree, but we don't live in an ideal world so I would prioritise health and safety of women and children (single sex provision) as they are the majority group and the groups most likely to be at a disadvantage from unisex (aka gender neutral) facilities.

@BloodyHellKenAgain you have missed my original point. I want single sex facilities plus universal/ gender neutral facilities to be a requirement in new buildings.

Older buildings may need a compromise but new builds can have them both from the word go.

Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 17:16

@IwantToRetire yes I agree. The first consultation was very much bombarded by lobbying (gender-neutral). This led the policy goals being centred around privacy and uni sex facilities which were alarming.

The information coming out today sound good but we are still concerned that (like in 4.2 of the Requirement T1: Toilet accommodation) buildings may provide universal toilets within a single sex space.

For safety and hygiene reasons this would be bad news.

BloodyHellKenAgain · 06/05/2024 17:15

Harassedevictee · 06/05/2024 16:30

@BloodyHellKenAgain it says “allow” I want it to say “must also provide”

In an ideal world i agree, but we don't live in an ideal world so I would prioritise health and safety of women and children (single sex provision) as they are the majority group and the groups most likely to be at a disadvantage from unisex (aka gender neutral) facilities.

IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 17:00

These are all the recent Government announcements about this.

So the newest (this thread) is at the top, but was reached by these various stages, ie oldest at the bottom.

Government to lay new law to halt the march of gender-neutral toilets in buildings
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-lay-new-law-to-halt-the-march-of-gender-neutral-toilets-in-buildings

New building requirements for separate male and female toilets
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets

New building requirements for separate male and female toilets
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-building-requirements-for-separate-male-and-female-toilets

Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence (now closed)
https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - analysis of responses received
https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/outcome/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence-analysis-of-responses-received

Toilet provision in buildings other than dwellings: a technical consultation paper
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-technical-consultation/toilet-provision-in-buildings-other-than-dwellings-a-technical-consultation-paper

So despite dealing with Trade and whatever else, KB has been pushing this forward.

Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - analysis of responses received

https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/outcome/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence-analysis-of-responses-received

OP posts:
Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 16:53

Hedgeoffressian · 06/05/2024 16:32

Until Labour gets in and reverses it.

I don’t think they will reverse it. If you follow the evidence, science and health and safety laws through, it makes sense to have toilets that are easy to access in an emergency.

Most people know someone who has diabetes, cardiac problems, strokes, epilepsy, whose drink has been spiked, who has been sexually assaulted. For all of these conditions or incidences the person is less safe in a fully private toilet like the universal design. Once people think it through, it becomes obvious. And once you have experienced a situation, it becomes more than about feelings. Medical stuff doesn’t care what sex you are or inner feelings.

IwantToRetire · 06/05/2024 16:48

In a rush but very surprised about the comments on this announcement.

There have been so many threads on this with all the points made here already been made.

There has been a consultation. Some of us contributed to this. KB has made it clear she is about re-establishing single SEX toilets. So not sure why anyone is talking about GRC.

It might be worth searching the earlier threads so that we can see this for what it is, a step forward. But mind numbingly slowly.

And the worry is that although KB is pushing this, in terms of the many problems the Tories have not sure the time will be found for the building requirements bill to be fitted in.

And we can be sure Labour wont be finding time for it.

So all we can do now is put pressure on the Tories to bring this forward so it isn't presented by the press (who continue to use the word gender which this isn't about) as a fringe issue.

I saw Anna Soubry on one of those paper review programmes, and she immediately derailed the discussion with fatuous remarks about how could train comply with this law. She is a former MP and a Barrister and hadn't even bothered to read the detail and instread used it as a platform to attack her former colleagues for fermenting a woke war.

At the very least what we can all do is make sure that it is reportedly accurate about single sex provision not being eroded.

(I didn't read the bit about schools, but really suggest not commenting based on the paragraphs I highlights but the actual documents.)

OP posts:
Hedgeoffressian · 06/05/2024 16:32

Until Labour gets in and reverses it.

Harassedevictee · 06/05/2024 16:30

@BloodyHellKenAgain it says “allow” I want it to say “must also provide”

Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 15:09

BananaLlama123 · 06/05/2024 14:41

I assume this means they are about to make the draft proposed Part T of the Building Regulations a full Approved Document.

The draft has been around for a while, you can Google for it, and like another poster above it influence a project of mine to be redesigned to have single sex toilets as well as gender neutral instead of just gender neutral.

Yep this is the universal toilet design. As you can see, it’s fully enclosed, has a door opening inwards and no alarm. And worryingly in the draft it says it could be used as an option in single sex facilities. We don’t know if this has been superseded by today’s announcement. But I feel this could break discrimination laws and health and safety at work laws if this was put in as a preference rather than the single sex toilets with door gaps and a means of rescue.

If someone fell against the door they would be there for some time.

edit: if you click the picture you’ll see the bit about single sex toilets

Gender-neutral lavatories banned in new-build restaurants and offices
Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 14:54

ErrolTheDragon · 06/05/2024 14:39

Would that work if the doors were outward facing and there were gaps, @Keeptoiletssafe ?

I think that would be much better but there’s no space to do this as opening out doors take more space for people waiting. But then you get more likelihood of people ‘holding in’ because of worries of voyeuristic behaviour (which is what able bodied people like about fully enclosed toilets).

There is never going to be a solution for everyone but the optimum one is always going to have door gaps for safeguarding when it really matters (medical emergencies and assaults) which are proportionately more likely to happen in a public toilet.

BananaLlama123 · 06/05/2024 14:41

I assume this means they are about to make the draft proposed Part T of the Building Regulations a full Approved Document.

The draft has been around for a while, you can Google for it, and like another poster above it influence a project of mine to be redesigned to have single sex toilets as well as gender neutral instead of just gender neutral.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/05/2024 14:39

Pipeskeepleaking · 06/05/2024 13:48

Why not just say that only universal ones are ok (proper door, sink etc, opening onto a corridor?)

that’s what I’d like best by far. No messing.

Would that work if the doors were outward facing and there were gaps, @Keeptoiletssafe ?

Snowypeaks · 06/05/2024 14:28

Keeptoiletssafe · 06/05/2024 12:58

@Wincher @UnimaginableWindBird @TheMuskratOfDestiny @SwimmingSnake

Apologies for picking out a few names that like the idea of fully enclosed universal toilets. Yes they sound lovely in theory but in practice they are dangerous especially to all of us when we are medically vulnerable and particularly to girls and women. They are fully enclosed and the doors open inwards.

It makes logical sense that more medical emergencies like heart attacks, strokes, seizures, and collapses happen in the toilet cubicle as that’s where we head to if we are feeling ill. When there is no way of knowing someone is having a medical emergency behind a full height door, vital time is wasted. The roll-out of defibrillators around the country is pointless if no one is aware the person in the has collapsed. And even if you realised, they have fallen against an inward opening door and the body is in the way, the lock needs a special key, and you need tools to dismantle the floor-to-ceiling cubicle partitions and door. The chances of survival could be reliant on a gap in the toilet door so someone can see you, and a way of getting over the door to rescue you. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet.

In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as stations and shopping centres. Women/girls/boys have been pushed or followed in.

Other problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  • Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  • Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  • Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter and wash down the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  • Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  • People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  • The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
  • Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.

The fully enclosed universal cubicle design should not be the recommendation for single sex toilets. Having fully enclosed toilets as standard would make it less safe for the many with common conditions such as asthma, epilepsy, diabetes (and the unknown like brain bleeds or cardiac problems) or those whose drinks had been spiked, all that carry a risk of collapse.

When you go to the loo you don’t think about all these scenarios but we need to prioritise overall safety for everyone.

Top posting.

BloodyHellKenAgain · 06/05/2024 14:01

Harassedevictee · 06/05/2024 13:48

@BloodyHellKenAgain the mixed sex provision is an option not a requirement.

From the BBC website:
The change to building regulations will also allow contained, universal toilets in addition to single-sex toilets where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where there is not enough space.

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