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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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bilgewater · 01/05/2024 23:21

He's a talentless little git.

katebushh · 01/05/2024 22:54

Oh dear, Daniel.

GwenogJones · 01/05/2024 22:48

For the person who keeps harping on about slavery in Harry Potter - Hermione's elf-rights group is called SPEW (Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare) which (and in no way accidentally) shares an acronym with real life SPEW (society for promoting employment for women).

Yes one can read "House elves are slaves" and stop thinking there. But they are actually based on mythological brownies (creatures who will do housework for humans in secret but get very offended and vengeful if you try and pay them) and are being used as an allegory for... house wives and a lack of women's rights.

Dobby is the battered and abused wife who escapes and becomes a feminist. Winky is the divorced / abandoned wife who turns to drink to deal with the societal shame put on her for her "failure". Kreacher is a trad wife, clinging to the benefits he receives by going along with the status quo regardless of how awful the people with power over him may be. House elves are offended when Hermione wants them to be paid because they are part of the family and they are doing this for love, same as house wives don't expect payment for their labour.

And they have absolutely been brainwashed into thinking this is what their purpose is and this is what makes them happy, and it has been going on for so long that no one knows where it started, no one even sees the unfairness and it is simply accepted as "the way things are".

Hermione - as the female lead of the story - is not locked in a battle to free the slaves, she is locked in a pseudo battle for women's rights. And she finds herself banging against the twin barriers of a) all the humans laughing at her (even the nice ones) and telling her this is the way it's supposed to be, it's "unkind" to the elves to change things and refusing to take her seriously because the oppression runs so deep they simply cannot see it and b) fighting for a people who themselves are resisting what she is offering because they believe themselves to be happy and in their rightful place.

Both these problems have been encountered by nascent women's rights organisations the world over. Hagrid refuses to listen to Hermione - he is the man who is perfectly lovely but just doesn't get it; we've all met them. He sees what he wants to see, he benefits from the system, it doesn't affect him negatively in any way and so he is happy not to think about it further and dismisses change as against the natural order. And the elves are like the women who argued and stood against the suffragettes. They don't want or need rights because they feel the system works for them as it is. It is only the Dobbys - who are cruelly abused - that seem to get that things are wrong, and even he can't overcome all of his conditioning (the way women can't let go of their guilt when they try to stand their ground and don't put everybody else before themselves).

Hermione is having to navigate a lack of support from all sides, and outright hostility form the very people she is trying to help, just as early feminists did (and later ones still do). And she's a headstrong teenager, she doesn't get her activism right. But she slowly convinces other young people that the status quo is not OK - culminating in Ron's suddenly thinking of the House Elves in the middle of the Battle of Hogwarts. And Dumbledore is supportive of her and backs her belief in fair treatment of Elves and both he and Hermione criticise Sirius and lay the blame for Sirius's death not on Kreacher but on Sirius's treatment of Kreacher.

The Black family are interesting, because Kreacher is loyal to the bad Blacks while hating the good one - and from Harry's perspective this is originally framed as Kreacher being a "bad" elf in direct contrast to Dobby who was a "good" elf. But the difference between them isn't their moral compass, it is their treatment by their families. Dobby is abused by the Malfoys and so hates them and betrays them and, as the Malfoys are bad, Dobby does things that help our protagonist and thus are "morally good". Kreacher has been well treated by the majority of the Black family but is mistreated by Sirius, and so hates him and betrays him. Because Sirius is a good character this frames Kreacher as being morally wrong. But both Elves are responding to their abuse in the same way (betraying their abuser and helping their enemies), and it is the wider politics of the owners and not actually the Elves' actions that determine whether the Elves themselves are seen as "good" or "bad".

And this is eventually realised and acknowledged by Harry himself. When Dumbledore suggests that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher was not all that it could be back in ootp Harry gets very angry. But in DH when Hermione says "I always said Wizards would pay for how they treated House Elves - well, Sirius did..." he understands what she means and does not attempt to defend Sirius; he understands the difference in the way the Black brothers treated their elf and how this shaped Kreacher and determined his actions.

Regulus Black is the man who publicly espouses awful views, is a far right bigot - but who treats his "wife" well and seems to genuinely care. Thus Kreacher loves Regulus and echoes his beliefs. Sirius is the right on, lefty, liberal man who says all the right things in public but goes home and beats up his own "wife". And so Kreacher hates him and conspires against him.

The lack of agency the Elves have and the way they view the world through the prism of their treatment by the wizards directly in charge of them echoes the lack of agency women have had throughout history - when denied education and a vote and a voice and even the right to own property, they could only effect change through the men in their lives - and the change they affected would be dependent on who those men were and how they treated the women.

And as to why it's not all sorted and solved by the end of the book. Well, take a fucking good look around at the state of women's rights in the world today, genius. The fight isn't over. The war isn't won. Women are still oppressed (and now JKR is fighting a massive rearguard action on the biggest assault on women's rights and attempts to take us backwards that has happened in her life time). Of course Hermione did not solve the problem in the three years she had between identifying it and the series finishing.

But even if you want to go with the surface level (and frankly amero-centric) slavery interpretation. That wasn't fixed in three years either. To expect a teenager to fix centuries of slavery in four books is frankly ludicrous, and to criticise the books for not tying it all up in a neat bow is just stupid.

The House Elf story line is a sub plot which serves to show us, the reader, and Harry as the main character, that the wizarding world is not the fuzzy friendly, whimsical refuge from the Dursleys that he (and we) originally viewed it as. It isn't a bunch of good guys and this one bad wizard who can be defeated by love, it's much darker, with systemic oppression and injustices that even the good characters fall prey to and can't see. There is corruption in government, there is lazy thinking and actual rotten sentiment that allows Voldemort to operate. And yes - they successfully take down Voldemort - but the rest of it is a bit more complex and it is going to take a bit more than a wizard's duel to put it right. The books itself don't have room to go into the complete reconstruction of magical government (not really appropriate for a children's story) but the later writings of what the characters do with their lives and in their careers show us that they did work towards making things better and Hermione got much further in helping the House Elves once she was in the Ministry than she did as a teenager.

Just because you do not understand the House Elf subplot does not make JKR problematic.

BloodyHellKenAgain · 01/05/2024 22:39

I'll take DR's comments about trans women being women with the same large pinch of salt I take when any straight man says this. Unless that man is willing to date a trans woman and lets face it straight men don't like penis, then what they are saying is meaningless rubbish.

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 22:00

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/05/2024 21:11

By nasty piece of work I assume you mean J. K. Rowling, who has given away so much money to charities helping women and children that she dropped off the list of UK billionaires. She single-handedly funds a women's rape crisis centre in Edinburgh. And in recent times, knowing that she is just about the only woman in the UK who could speak out about threats to women's rights and safeguarding of the vulnerable without losing her career, she has done just that. We could do with a lot more nasty pieces of work like that.

I know. What a bitch.

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StainlessSteelMouse · 01/05/2024 21:52

I wish, just as a general thing, that actors felt less of a need to pronounce on social issues. Actors are not generally deep thinkers. Many of them are kind of dumb. They earn their money by being good at pretending.

This will make me sound like a terrible old fogey, but I miss when there were only a few activist actors, the likes of Susan Sarandon and Warren Beatty, and you knew they had thought about their causes and were serious about them. Most of them just entertained us by pretending.

I think it's partly Hollywood becoming integrated into the Democratic Party machine, thanks to those diamond geezers Bill Clinton and Harvey Weinstein, and it's partly just social media.

Actors' agents used to make sure we only saw them in curated interviews where they only had to be charming. Now they're tweeting all day, and not showing us what deep thinkers they are. I'm sure Mark Ruffalo is a nice guy, but do I need to know what he thinks about the elections in Hungary? Do I believe Mark Ruffalo could find Hungary on a map?

So yeah, Dan is entitled to his opinion and his association with the Trevor Project obviously means something to him. But I wish actors would concentrate more on acting and the media would give them fewer incentives to be half-baked political pundits.

HRTQueen · 01/05/2024 21:47

The comments are never about trans men being real men are they

funny that 🙄 its just woman that need to be told

Chersfrozenface · 01/05/2024 21:36

ColdInApril · 01/05/2024 21:25

Men and women also have different sized lungs/hearts. So I imagine anaesthetist’s need all relevant and correct information.

Men and women react differently to different anaesthetics.

It used to be the case that doses were calculated on body size, but further research has found that doses need to be adjusted for sex - up to 30% or 40% more or less depending on which anaesthetic and which sex.

Plenty of papers available.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/05/2024 21:29

Different hormonal systems, size and composition of muscles, percentage of fat and where it's deposited in the body ...

ColdInApril · 01/05/2024 21:25

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:08

So you saying a 6ft "femsle" needs a woman's dose and a 5 ft 3 man needs a man's dose or they won't go to "slerp".

Because that's far more based on weight than it is on sex.

Men and women also have different sized lungs/hearts. So I imagine anaesthetist’s need all relevant and correct information.

NonPlayerCharacter · 01/05/2024 21:22

Daniel Radcliffe appears to have admitted to being friends with racists in 2016. Would someone who thinks JKR is a stain on humanity for acknowledging biological reality and the need to give women rights that also acknowledge it like to comment on this?

"I know some really f—ing racist people, friends I vehemently disagree with. They’re not white supremacists, they would never be that extreme, but they are anti-immigration and absolutely voted to leave in Brexit. And I’m still friends with them because I don’t think that friendship should be drawn along those lines. That’d be a really sad way of viewing the world."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/imperium-daniel-radcliffe-going-undercover-921014/

'Imperium': Daniel Radcliffe on Going Undercover and Humanizing White Supremacists (Q&A)

Daniel Radcliffe Talks Going Undercover and Humanizing White Supremacists in ‘Imperium’ (Q&A)

The actor and writer-director Daniel Ragussis also discuss filming a racially-charged rally and question the media's fascination with Donald Trump.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/imperium-daniel-radcliffe-going-undercover-921014

passthepenguin · 01/05/2024 21:13

I find him so irrelevant. He’s just another sheeple. Nothing more.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/05/2024 21:11

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:05

It's obvious that he was in the press for something else and the sad little interviewer kept pressing him on this issue, which he clearly doesn't want to get dragged into again. So, no, he'd rather do anything than talk about that nasty piece of work any more.

By nasty piece of work I assume you mean J. K. Rowling, who has given away so much money to charities helping women and children that she dropped off the list of UK billionaires. She single-handedly funds a women's rape crisis centre in Edinburgh. And in recent times, knowing that she is just about the only woman in the UK who could speak out about threats to women's rights and safeguarding of the vulnerable without losing her career, she has done just that. We could do with a lot more nasty pieces of work like that.

NonPlayerCharacter · 01/05/2024 21:09

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:05

It's obvious that he was in the press for something else and the sad little interviewer kept pressing him on this issue, which he clearly doesn't want to get dragged into again. So, no, he'd rather do anything than talk about that nasty piece of work any more.

Who dragged him into it? Did someone actually force him to talk dangerous bollocks in 2020?

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:08

TeaGinandFags · 01/05/2024 18:49

Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional health care associations who have far more expertise on this subject matter than either Jo or I.

Right, mate.

So when a transgender person has surgery the anaesthetist needs to know the biologicak sex: a male receiving a female dose won't go to slerp while a femsle receiving a male dose won't wake up.

Sex matters. Fantasies don't.

Edited

So you saying a 6ft "femsle" needs a woman's dose and a 5 ft 3 man needs a man's dose or they won't go to "slerp".

Because that's far more based on weight than it is on sex.

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:05

User1979289 · 01/05/2024 20:57

Talking about JKR and her opinions is the only way this loser can stay in the press. What a pathetic sad little misogynist he is.

It's obvious that he was in the press for something else and the sad little interviewer kept pressing him on this issue, which he clearly doesn't want to get dragged into again. So, no, he'd rather do anything than talk about that nasty piece of work any more.

HelpIneedaworktop · 01/05/2024 21:04

Omg Daniel Radcliffe. That’s my mind changed. So glad he took the time to comment or I would have just sleep walked through life. So brave.

MadameameBeans · 01/05/2024 21:03

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 12:40

Apparently he hasn’t spoken with JKR for years. I’m sure she’s gutted, given his bleatings Hmm

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/daniel-radcliffe-j-k-rowling-anti-trans-rhetoric-response-1235013076/

You realise that these "new stories" are not him going out of his say to "respond" to something she has said, as if he is making a very important and manly proclamation that everyone must listen to? Some reporter in an interview has gone on and on about it to him to try and make him respond so they can write a tedious article about it. He obviously doesn't want to get into it all again (hence him saying "I'll carry on supporting LGBT and that's all I have to say on the matter", as he knows its nothing to do with him, but the press will carry on carrying on about stuff to get a soundbite because they know the hard of thinking lap it up.

User1979289 · 01/05/2024 20:57

Talking about JKR and her opinions is the only way this loser can stay in the press. What a pathetic sad little misogynist he is.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 20:42

Thanks @SidewaysOtter.

Personally, I think if you read about the Gringotts goblins in the books, or even watch those scenes of the films, and immediately think "Jews!" then that says more about you than it does about anything else.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/05/2024 20:38

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · 01/05/2024 17:51

I mean you can dismiss my viewpoint like that if you want. But I'm not an outlier, the opinion that she is awful is widespread. And any meaningful conversation to protect women's rights / women's spaces won't happen with her leading the movement. Her awfulness is a distraction from the actual issues 🤷🏻‍♀️

But I'm not an outlier, the opinion that she is awful is widespread.

Yes, that's how echo chambers work, mate.

It doesn't mean that the people in the echo chamber are actually right though. Especially given that none of them appear to have actually read what she's written on this subject or be able to explain why it is actually transphobic.

MrsGalloway · 01/05/2024 20:36

I completely support Daniel Radcliffe’s right to express an opinion, as no doubt would JKR. What I found particularly unpleasant was the fact that he seemed to feel qualified to apologise on her behalf to HP fans. I thought that was an incredibly arrogant thing to do. Of course, having stuck his oar in, he also didn’t think it was appropriate to at least say he didn’t think she should be subjected to threats of death violence and cancellation and I very much think less of him for that.

I followed the entire thing at the time and to be fair to Daniel he commented (I think) before JKR released her essay in which she explained her views with reference to the domestic violence she had suffered- followed by a Sun headline referencing an interview with her ex husband who confirmed he did abuse her. I did think that Daniel might say something vaguely supportive at that point (even Owen Jones did) but no.

I remember being very surprised that Emma Watson and Rupert Grint saw fit to release their completely anodyne patronising “TWAW TWAM yay, sorry if you’ve been hurt by that awful woman, give money to Mermaids” statements in response to that deeply personal and heartfelt statement from someone they had a personal relationship with.

SinnerBoy · 01/05/2024 20:27

Nidysheyzjsbsgwhw · Today 18:00

Just say you don't understand what holocaust denial means

OK, here you go:

YOU don't know what Holocaust denial means, not that it should be capitalised, in this case. (That's to differentiate from its original meaning in Greek; a mass sacrifice of animals to the gods).

As you are no doubt aware, a German court ruled that her entirely accurate statement that the Nazis did NOT target trans people as a group, for extermination, did not meet the threshold for Holocaust denial.

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 20:26

After the big final battle, her main characters thought is of that slave will bring him a sandwich. That to me isn't a clear cut message that slavery is wrong

a) it’s a throwaway thought made by an exhausted and starving teenage boy;
b) it isn’t doing anything unpleasant to Kreacher, who had distinctly warmed to Harry after he gave Kreacher the fake locket and had taken to looking after him; and
c) if you need it specifically pointing out to you by the last chapter of the seventh book that Rowling believes that the way house elves are treated by the wizarding world is wrong, then there’s something wrong with your reading comprehension.

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SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 19:55

From Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, the first description of a goblin. Setting the scene, if you will:

”The goblin was about a head shorter than Harry. He had a swarthy, clever face, a pointed beard and, Harry noticed, very long fingers and feet.”

I don't know how you could get “Jew” from this not least because none of the Jews I know have long feet. Of course, you can’t because that’s not how they were depicted. Goblins were always going to be shrewd on the basis that they control the money and other precious objects but that doesn’t equal Jewish. Not unless you’re trying to paint the author in a bad light and twist the facts to suit yourself.

Ditto the “denial of trans people in the Holocaust”. As a PP said, cross-dressing was surprisingly widespread amongst Nazi top brass and the cross-dressers who were killed were murdered for being gay, a political opponent or other persecuted characteristic. I have never seen any evidence that cross-dressing (which has now been appropriated by the Stonewall trans umbrella) was solely a cause of persecution and murder. Unless, again, you’re twisting the truth to suit your narrative.

Then we get to the slavery. The HP books were never about slavery, it was a side plot so criticism that this isn’t made a focus is unfair. It is quite clear throughout her books, however, on the need to stand up for what is right even if it means standing up to your friends. Which Hermione does with SPEW, even when she gets mocked for it (which I can understand because she becomes a bit of a zealot - oh, the irony of an over-enthusiastic activist…). But to see how Dobby and other house elves are treated by Harry, Dumbledore and the Order, and Hermione’s campaigning to make people realise that their food comes from a hidden army, contrasted with the treatment of house elves by the likes of the Malfoys and the Blacks, and Dumbledore’s open criticism of how Sirius had treated Kreacher which led directly to him hating wizards so much he betrayed the Order, shows exactly where Rowling’s sentiments lie. Unless you need to twist words to fit the truth you want to believe.

And lastly, I have never seen anything Rowling has said or written which is “anti-trans”. She has, in reality, been supportive of anyone’s right to live, dress, and date as they please. She has just said that some boundaries are not to be crossed with regards the parallel rights of others and, like toddlers told they can’t have any more Haribo, it elicits an almighty tantrum from those who think they should have special rights which trump those of others. Which is what we see again and again.

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