Incorrect guidance on single-sex spaces and gender self-identification - gov.uk asking for examples

If you google girlguiding and then look at their trans policy it is very clear they are a single gender organisation.

From what I've read they are not even "single gender" because they welcome NB and trans boys. They are mixed-sex and mixed-gender but then pretend otherwise.

Girlguiding promotes an inclusive and safe environment where all girls and young women, including trans girls and young women, should feel accepted. Non-binary people assigned female at birth and trans boys as new young members based on their sex should also feel welcome.

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/information-for-volunteers/running-your-unit/including-all/lgbt-members/supporting-trans-members/

I don't thinks so but it does have a stonewall smell to it.

If you google girlguiding and then look at their trans policy it is very clear they are a single gender organisation.

Sashh- I’d like to add girl guiding’s woeful position (am a volunteer) but it’s such a woolly mess, it’s hard to unpick. Did they ever tell us where they got their advice?

Does anyone agree with the NEU guidance on toilets and changing rooms? It seems very much about the trans persons comfort and no one else. They say that ‘not all trans students will immediately want to use the toilets/changing rooms that match their GI…’ but these facilities are not based on someone’s gender identity. https://neu.org.uk/advice/equality/lgbt-equality/supporting-trans-and-gender-questioning-students

I've found the source, it was government advice but has been withdrawn. Originally from Government Equalities Office (GEO).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recruiting-and-retaining-transgender-staff-a-guide-for-employers

@naanaa

Universities of:

Bristol
Staffordshire
Leicester
Keele
UCL
London school of hygiene and tropical medicine
London
Liverpool John Moores

Probably some I can't remember.

Also a couple of NHS trusts and a council's advice to primary schools.

it's university guidance from two universities that sashh posted Today at 09:57

And other people appear to have found it elsewhere, too. It looks like a cut and paste.

Yes, but what I would like to see is Kemi unequivocally letting shops/gyms know they can absolutely exclude transwomen, no fuss, no bother, no reprisals.

And once they understand that (and I don't know if this is Kemi's remit), but shops need to understand that if they do allow men in any women's spaces, they have to tell their customers that's what's happening.

It's one thing to choose to take the easy route and not make a fuss, by making everything unisex, it's quite another telling your female customers that's what you're doing, and they have to put up with it.

Or not...

My organisation has a policy exactly like this. It's awful. I saw a male at my workplace a few weeks ago. He was easily 6 foot, stubbled, wearing a padded bra under a tight t-shirt and a leopard print skirt split to the thigh.

This is the reality of working for a Stonewall champion.

I wouldn't interpret that page in that way - the only mention specifically of sport is no Girls vs Boys games or competitions. I'm fine with that, not because a not-out trans young person would be unhappy, but because it's lazy, often puts one side at an inherent disadvantage and emphasises the sex based differences where it is not relevant (such as in an academic competition).

Sounds like a health and safety disaster just waiting to happen re : rugby

National Education Union suggests having no single sex sport. I can't imagine many schools are following this at secondary level:

https://neu.org.uk/advice/equality/lgbt-equality/supporting-trans-and-gender-questioning-students

See attached doc re Building regs

After consultation the Government changed their guidance on new buildings toilet provision. July 2022
However
Note the ‘get out clause’

Unisex where space allows

I believe there should be no ‘get out clause’ as it’s just an excuse for developers not to bother.
I have posted this on the consultation you have posted OP

So a warning to other MNs whatever you send in to this consultation I would be tempted to ask for no ‘get out clauses’

What’s the source of this one? What I find incredible is even if an organisations policy is reasonable on these grounds, all the wording is so heavily weighted in favour of Trans, you can tell they’re so worried about offending anyone except women it seems.

Have a read of this:

Example: A clothes shop has separate changing areas for male and female customers to try on garments in cubicles. The shop concludes that it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of separate cubicles.

From the EHRC

A Transgender person should have access to ‘men-only’ and ‘women-only’ areas – such as changing rooms and toilets – according to the gender in which they present. This may mean that a person changes the facilities they use at the point when they start to live in their acquired gender. Their presence in a particular toilet should not be questioned.

It's such a fucking nerve. You must let men in your intimate spaces ladies and girls, and if you don't like it, shut the fuck up.

And the fact that so many universities have it is its own bloody scandal.

Yes I’ve just done the same thing. Many many universities have this same wording. So they’ve clearly simply copied and pasted this as someone else suggested, from an original source. I’m hoping by the time people like us have sent info they’ll realise how big the problem is.

They could look at DfE data sites. Get Information About Pupils, for example. Or the live attendance connection to schools that is a legal requirement.

The filter for Male/Female is still Gender.

When MIS companies have to 'un-fix' software to record Sex as Gender so that census returns still work - and then have to re-fix it later, only to have to un-fix it again for another census, it's not just a waste of time and money, it further confuses what they are actually looking for (and, FWIW, it's never gender identity that they're looking for, as that isn't collected).

@Datun, so true.

I've actually put the quote I put above in to google and it bringing up identical policies from various unis and NHS organisations.

And even if not all these issues reach the criteria, it can't hurt for as many people as possible to be aware of them.

Indeed.

And they used this male 'dominatrix' as a girl guides commissioner, who also, if I recall correctly, posted pictures of themself in the bath.

And...

.In a third photo shared on Twitter, Ms Sulley posed in a fairly low cut top with the caption: "Boobs, or did you want to see more?". She was seen in a further picture clutching a sword.

And since they don't tell parents, parents wouldn't have known.

Well I have just looked at Keele uni and Staffordshire uni, their 'trans policies' are identical and include.

A Transgender person should have access to ‘men-only’ and ‘women-only’ areas – such as changing rooms and toilets – according to the gender in which they present. This may mean that a person changes the facilities they use at the point when they start to live in their acquired gender. Their presence in a particular toilet should not be questioned.

Can I ask everyone to check the uni they attended or the uni their child attends?

Yes that would be worth reporting. I'm not aware of a deadline but it was only announced this week so you'd have time.

@Datun They don't tell parents about it either.

There is a MNer who was basically kicked out for saying it was a safe guarding issue.

I don't know if a number of people reporting has more impact but I don't think it can do any harm if you want to report too.

I have checked the adult safeguarding, fostering and disabled safeguarding policies of my council and they used gender instead of sex. So disabled people are able to choose intimate carers of a particular gender. Am I right to think this is a valid instance to report?

also, is there a deadline?

Thanks