Incorrect guidance on single-sex spaces and gender self-identification - gov.uk asking for examples

Bumping. There's still time to do this.

@Meadowbird there were some claims from the despicable child rapist David Challenor that he and his equally despicable son (Amy) have influenced the change. He was a Beaver? In a group. There might be old threads with some info if you want to search and check my memories of the time.

Good to see the common sense mumsnetters voice is having a positive impact

CIPD along with this thread (with screenshots) in the Mail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13387477/Transgender-guidance-HR-professionals-Maya-Forstater.html

For examples of incorrect guidance, how about The Guardian today:

Under existing law, transgender people can use the toilet that matches their gender identity ...

They do go on to say:

,,,but, in 2022,the Equality and Human Rights Commission said that, under the Equality Act, people who do not have a gender recognition certificate could be excluded from single-sex services or facilities, including toilets, if it is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.

But the juxtaposition of these two claims seems to imply (falsely) that the EHRC guidance is different from (and contradicts) 'existing law'.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/06/how-the-single-sex-toilet-law-in-england-will-work

It’s strange that a quick Google brought up lots of evidence that British Gymnastics said doesn’t exist.
This below from Fair Play For Women. Now someone could argue that this doesn’t mean there’s evidence of this behaviour within Gymnastics, but I’d suggest it certainly highlights a very worrying trend.
I just can’t believe we’re having to even do this, justify why we want to keep single sex facilities for biological women only.

If women didn’t perceive a threat we’d hear nothing, just as we hear nothing from men,when trans men want to use male facilities. There’s a reason women and men’s facilities were made separate and the reasons for that haven’t changed.

From Fair Play for Women:
In 2018 the MOJ released statistics showing half of the people in prison who declare themselves transgender have been sentenced with one or more sexual offences. We have now obtained new data which is the clearest and most recent evidence confirming the vast majority of these trans sex offenders were born male. These MOJ statistics show that transgender women exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality. We conclude that transwomen in prison exhibit a propensity to sexual crime that matches their birth sex and not their gender identity. This is relevant and necessary information when making legislation and policies designed to keep women safe.

Thanks for highlighting this - I shall be busy 😊

Thankyou so much.
Yes copy and paste not so good…..no glue 😆
I’ll write the address down. Excellent
and Thankyou again.

Copy the address of the website you want to report. Paste it onto the box in the form to report stuff. If you genuinely can't copy and paste then write the website address down and type it into the box on the form

I had a long wriiten exchange on this with the Masons head solicitor, the top man . After much consideration they decided they had to admit those with a GRC and was very surprised the WI had taken such a laid back , open all hours approach.

And yet the Freemasons only accept Transmen who joined as men. They will not accept a newcomer presenting as a Transman .

So how exactly are they getting away with it

I am filling the form in regarding the WI . Which is now open to anyone “who lives as a woman”:and that your sex does not have to be recorded or admitted but at the same time have not updated their policy for shared accommodation at National Conference and WI events which is still based on 2 people sharing.

Thanks
However
And I know I should know this but I’ve never needed to use word, edexcel etc all those. Ask me to draw a building in 3D with details…easy….ask me to cut and paste and I’m looking for the glue 🤨

So
i know how to open the Govn doc and fill it out
I don’t know how to ‘save a link’

What and where is the link, where does it save to, how do I get it back and how do I put it where I want it to be.

As an aside I never post links on MN either …as I can’t

Is there a dummies guide, the standard googled ones are full of techno speak!

One thing I'd like to see the back of in all documentation is this ridiculous 'AFAB' rubbish. It's unscientific trash, and has no place in any policy document. Just a relic of Stonewallspeak.

@Kandalama if you go to the first post on this thread and press the link it takes you to a page where if you scroll down there is a section on ‘how to respond’. This then takes you page by page through a series of questions (most are just buttons to press). If you save a link to the page where the advice you think is wrong it asks you to post this in a box with a few words on why. Takes a couple of minutes (if that) and no personal info is required. Hope that helps.

I think for ages many GC people have made the argument “it’s not genuine tw we are worried about it’s bad men taking advantage of the situation”. I imagine this is done in an attempt to avoid backlash and also to maintain a position of kindness but it just has the effect of confusing the issue and suggesting that the subset of men who ID as women are somehow less of a risk to women than other men.

This is the same for Exeter Uni.
Including this notion that you cannot question someone in the facilities.
They also state no trans person should be expected to use the unisex disabled toilets as they are not disabled. However disabled toilets are simply accessible toilets and are for everyone to use so this, by Exeter, is a misunderstanding of Building Regs aswell.

They are Very mixed up !

[However, they now have a huge ‘get out clause’ stating any new buildings will have separate unisex toilets as well ie in accordance with updated Bregs. ]
Im not convinced that’s enough, surely they can be expected to upgrade existing provision. If it’s not forced the only buildings that ever give us safety will be newly built ones.

I think that is worth mentioning !!!!!!!

If someone could explain how I link an article I will be able to fill out the Govn form.
Please

I love the answer Riley Gaines gave when it was suggested she should be kind. Paraphrasing.

"What is kind about telling women and girls to undress in front of a biological male?"

What further amazes me is that it’s girls who are told if they’re not happy, they can make other arrangements!!!! God forbid you ask the transgender person to do that instead.

It may well be highly unlikely that a male would claim to be female simply for the purposes of gaining entry to female changing rooms, but that doesn’t mean it’s an impossibility. If it’s accessible, it’s possible.
And I’d argue that there is evidence, that trans women do pose a threat to females. As is often the case the people making these statements, are by and large, are not the women who will be left vulnerable in the “well we don’t think it’s a problem brigade”, scenario.

It would seem to be a much more, “yes let’s jump in and help you to complete your transition” rather than the current 2023 Govt. Guidance which is a much more measured approach. I have two children who teach and they both say that there needs to be official guidance, which has a less open approach so that all teachers know what the law says and there’s less ambiguity which could be open to abuse.

Manchester uni engineering block - the unsafest unisex toilet set up I saw in all of the uni visits. Googled and saw that a group of trans activist students had campaigned for unisex toilets. Basically men wanting to exclude women from whilst they play at being women.

We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities

Tell me you know nothing about safeguarding.... Fuckwits.

Also British Gymnastics

We have no evidence to suggest that trans participants present a safeguarding risk to other participants. The use of gendered toilets and changing facilities can be a source of considerable anxiety for trans young people, who are often particularly vulnerable to bullying and abuse by their peers. It is highly unlikely that a participant who is not trans would claim that they identify as female simply to access the girl’s changing facilities or toilets. We are confident that clubs would be able to tell the difference between someone who is genuine in their intention to live permanently in the opposite gender and someone who has an ulterior motive for accessing these facilities and would identify the later scenario correctly as a child protection issue that should be reported without delay. We do not believe that our trans inclusion guidance compromises the welfare of girls.

British Gymnastics

The Equality Act requires that trans people are treated as belonging to the sex in which they present (as opposed to the physical sex they were born with) unless there is evidence that they have an unfair advantage, or there is a risk to the safety of other participants which may apply in some close contact sports