Are you voting in the next general election purely on the transgender issue?

Oh, you are one of those Brexit bores still banging on years later <yawn>

This might well come back to bite you! How embarrassing to say you are better informed than literally everyone else! 😂
Does it make you uncomfortable to see France choose in a similar way to Italy?

We have a house in France and everyone in our village is planning to vote for her - even the ones that can’t stand her, the consider macron to be a technocratic leader and not one that actually represents their interests in any way. It’s in the south, so mostly macron territory if you like.

No, the potential outcomes of Brexit were known from the outset by anyone with even a smidgen of understanding about how the EU works.

It's a rules based organisation.

Rule 1 of this rules based organisation is that in order to be part of the single market and customs union you have to accept free movement of goods, services, people and capital. These four freedoms are indivisible, you can't have some without the others.

Rule 2 is that there needs to be a border between any country which is inside and any country which is outside.

Everything else is window dressing.

If you understood these two rules it was obvious from the outset what potential outcomes would be possible.

It's not so much that the EU wanted to discourage others from leaving. It's the fact that their entire structure would collapse if they allowed even one country to be an exception to the rules in this way. There's literally no good reason why they would do that.

The UK government didn’t have the power to decide that any more than an independent Scotland could decide what trade barriers or border the rUK could impose. The outcome of Brexit was the result of negotiations between the UK and an intransigent EU determined not to encourage others to leave.

I hate to be that person, but actually anyone with reasonable knowledge of how the EU actually works could have told you what options would be on the table. Soft Brexit (the Norway model) or Hard Brexit (with a side dish of "oh fuck what do we do about the border in Ireland).

There were never going to be any other choices available.

This.

It's a no from me. Anyone who thinks the Tories are probably women needs to give their head a wobble.

Everyone in France knows that Le Pen isn't capable of actually running the country, which is why there will be lots of talk about how she might win, but when push comes to shove she will lose, just like she loses every election.

I think we need to bear in mind that this shit show happened under a Tory government

Yeah it's an odd one. On several occasions whilst living in France I've had people text me to ask if I'm OK because they've read in the UK media that the whole of France is on fire and I haven't been aware of what is supposedly happening. The gilet jaune protests were quite something for a couple of months (only at weekends) but people in the UK seemed to be under the impression that it was still ongoing months after it had finished and that this was a sign that Macron's leadership was fucked. Well, no, Macron held out for longer than the gilets jaunes did, he passed his reforms and then he won another term.

I think British people don't really understand the French mentality, i.e. the fact that they love to complain and shout and protest and this is completely normal for them, not a sign that society has broken down (even if they are complaining that society has broken down), and yes most French people always hate the government even if it is the government that they personally voted into office just a few weeks ago, but they also want their public services to run. Very few of them actually like chaos.

But I also think the UK media massively ham up whatever is happening in France because the British public like to console themselves about the shit show that is the UK by saying, "Oh well, it could be worse, at least it's not as bad as it is in France."

What is strange is how you seem to have conflated Le Pen’s potential win with the collapse of France?!

France isn’t going to collapse - it is remaining true to its democratic values which is protective and the safest way for any society to display their disapproval and seek change.

That’s what the political analyst say. France it seems has had enough.

People in the UK say Le Pen is probably going to win the next election in France every single time. It hasn't come close to happening yet. I wouldn't believe anything you read in the UK media about France in general. They seem determined to portray France as a civilisation permanently on the verge of collapse, which just isn't true in reality.

I've always wondered why that is (media bias v France, I mean).

People in the UK say Le Pen is probably going to win the next election in France every single time. It hasn't come close to happening yet. I wouldn't believe anything you read in the UK media about France in general. They seem determined to portray France as a civilisation permanently on the verge of collapse, which just isn't true in reality.

People in the UK say Le Pen is probably going to win the next election in France every single time. It hasn't come close to happening yet. I wouldn't believe anything you read in the UK media about France in general. They seem determined to portray France as a civilisation permanently on the verge of collapse, which just isn't true in reality.

People in the UK say Le Pen is probably going to win the next election in France every single time. It hasn't come close to happening yet. I wouldn't believe anything you read in the UK media about France in general. They seem determined to portray France as a civilisation permanently on the verge of collapse, which just isn't true in reality.

It’s interesting to see the political developments in the EU and the huge swing to the far right. I feel relieved we are listening to our people in the U.K., and their fears, and responding with referendums and in a democratic way or we would be facing the same fate as France for example. Where it looks very likely Marine ke pen will win this time.

I hate to be that person, but actually anyone with reasonable knowledge of how the EU actually works could have told you what options would be on the table. Soft Brexit (the Norway model) or Hard Brexit (with a side dish of "oh fuck what do we do about the border in Ireland).

There were never going to be any other choices available.

It was, however, their fault for not defining what Brexit would look like prior to the referendum

The ‘Brexit’ campaigners could no more lay out what Brexit would look like prior to a referendum than the SNP can dictate what Scottish independence would look like. That would depend on the governments elected into power over the next few years and the terms agreed with the other party (EU/rUK). You can’t even say what you would accept from negotiations as that would be immediately taken by the other side as the starting point for negotiations, not the end point. The same holds true of ‘remain’ - no one could tell at the point of the referendum what a subsequent government would do.

The thing is though that the Conservatives at least began to backtrack and put the brakes on. The other major parties did not.

That's not true. Since the Isla Bryson case and the Cass Review other major parties are backtracking and putting the brakes on. It's just when they do it, it's called "reverse ferreting" on FWR.

No. I am worried about the direction of the NHS and the welfare state (such as is left) under the Conservatives, who have shown they care little for these things (obviously do not realise even Tory voters use the NHS?). So I shall reluctantly vote Labour, then fight over the trans issue if it is necessary - but Starmer has accepted the Cass review, so maybe they realise trans is a vote loser?