If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

Define "act or live like a woman" without using any gender stereotypes.

I'll wait.

No hun, they aren't.

I can't speak for Alice, but I understand gender identity to be whether you believe yourself to be like others of your sex, like members of the opposite sex, or like some unsexed, blended or inbetween state. And unspoken beneath that is your beliefs, probably not even conscious beliefs, about what are the significant differences between the members of each sex that define them as that sex.

What I don't understand is why this personal belief, based not on empirical knowledge of the other sex's internal experience but simply on one's own beliefs projected onto the other sex, should be considered interchangeable in society and law with actually being the opposite sex.

A made up concept that nobody can define?

Of course not - what do you think gender identity is?

So it is down to the clothes and hair?

So fashion?

What about a 'trans woman' who wears jeans?

Does it have to be jeans bought from the ladies section rather than the gents that makes them 'trans'?

In the contrary, I think every GC woman would love to be proved wrong.

That would mean:

Childrem and young adults are not being needlessly damaged because the medical interventions being done are genuinely justified by a measurable and permanent improvement in mental health and quality of life

Women's sports are not being destroyed because male bodies do not have an unfair advantage in women's sport

Women are not losing single sex protections because at the population level trans women as a population have the same risk profile to female people as other female people

Women are not losing the women only opportunies that are supposed to mitigate structural sexism because at the population level trans women as a population suffer the same prejudices and same domestic and motherhood drags as female people

Trans men/boys are not at risk from men in male spaces because they gain full male privilege and social power as soon as they transition

We can whole heartedly rejoin the social and professional circles that currently ostracise us because we can't understand the logic by which the known and provable common history, challenges and the resulting social and physical needs of female people are suddenly said to be common to certain male people as well

As feminists we would not have to divert our time and resources to crowdfunding and supporting the women cancelled and attacked for being GC

Damn right I want to believe! It would make life so much easier.

I just can't, because regardless of what I may want the truth is what it is, and the deeper you look the clearer it is this whole TRA-style version of gender identity and trans rights is built on nothing more than stereotypes, solipsism, censorship and entitlement.

They're opposite sex impersonators and they're not very good at it.

I have no intention of putting anyone in their place.

A man and a transwomen are both biological men. A transwoman has a female gender identity.

Yes, that's generally how humans learn and develop.

If you have something to offer to persuade people what the difference between 'men' and 'trans women's is, then let rip.

Put us all in our places.

Crack on.

Yes. Do you not learn that way? I do. I learn a great deal in analysing and evaluating whether arguments stand up and still work when they are 'completely picked apart'.

If what you say doesn't hold its validity after it has been completely picked apart, and you cannot provide the evidence to support your statement, don't you then re-evaluate your understanding of something?

You say this is an echo chamber. Yet you are the one who seems to not want your statements to be considered or evaluated. Isn't that 'echo chamber' mentality? ie. what you are accusing the board of being? Seems rather hypocritical to me.

@valensiwalensi

One could safely call a group of people who (for example) believe the earth is flat, an echo chamber.

As they will refuse to debate the fundamental tenet that the earth is flat, even though they have no evidence whatsoever.

This boards fundamental tenet is that sex is real and immutable. Which is biologically a fact.

How we feel about Trans identity politics, how to deal with pro nouns, who to vote for etc are all subjects we debate, and don’t always agree. We also exchange resources, and links to literature about the subject,

Which means this board is not an echo chamber.

You are just ignoring the basic tenet of this board and seem surprised to learn we are not abandoning a fact cos you come along and say so.

Why are you even here?

It's not. It would be great if anyone came on with a smidgen of intelligent argument that doesn't go against basic biology and fact. Unfortunately that doesn't really happen on this board. Such evidenced by yourself.

Because apparently, this isn't an echo chamber.

Allegedly.

What is the point of coming on this board to state something that the majority of this board's posters know not to be true? And you don't even attempt to give any intelligent argument as to why you state what you state. Because it might be (rightfully) picked apart?

So what is the point of responding?

You and I clearly have different POV.

I've probably touched more grass in the last 3 days than most, to be honest. I've just spent 3 days weeding it out of my fruit beds. I have a compost bin full of the stuff.

However, I appreciate that there is no actual difference and this is a diversionary tactic so I'll not hold up another gardening session in anticipation.

P.s...they are the exact same thing. I know it, you know it, we all know it. But do have a go if you think you can.

You are being unreasonable in using the redundant (and offensive) word 'cis'. There are women and there are men. People who wish to identify as the opposite are still women or men, just with different clothes and names, and in a very small percentage, surgical changes to the body.

If I have learned anything from this Board, its to consider a response expecting it to be completely picked apart.

The time it took you to type that @valensiwalensi you could've given it a bash.

Some of us have to work so you wont get a response instantly......perhaps in the meantime you can go outside and touch some grass or something?

Which is misogynistic in nature because it allocates female people a limitation in their behaviour and the way they look. This cannot be twisted to not be misogynistic.

This is what I don't understand. The likes of Rachel Dolezal claiming to be a different race (which is, actually, mostly* a social construct, compared to sex - which isn't!), playing out a reductionist and narrow minded version of what she thinks a black person is, is seen by many as abhorrent and racist. I agree with them. But when men perform some sort of reductionist view of what they think women are, it's apparently fine!

Then there are the "Alex, madre de quatro" types who just baffle me completely, but at least they're not being offensive in role playing some stereotypes of women 😂

*I say mostly, but one could argue it's completely a social construct based on physical appearance and cultural background - I put mostly as you could argue that there are 'real' differences regarding physical appearance and some ability to genetically determine your race.

I'm poised with a freshly sharpened pencil to take notes @valensiwalensi please come and educate me.

No male person is a type of woman regardless of whether there is a space in between trans and woman or not. Using the language of 'transwoman' does force people to never acknowledge that these male people are still men. They are men who hold a philosophical belief that they how they present or their actions are those of 'women' based only on their belief that women live the way they envision. Which is misogynistic in nature because it allocates female people a limitation in their behaviour and the way they look. This cannot be twisted to not be misogynistic.

Some people may choose to adhere to using 'transwomen' but the material reality is that this term is an honorific that is based on misogyny and these male people are no different from any other male person. Because there is no set way to be a male person, except to be born male, and they can be as 'gender non-conforming' as they want to be. Still men though.

Well no, they are transwomen.

You can't be a transwoman unless you are a man.