If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

So much fail ChatGPT. We used to say, GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out

I asked ChatGPT:

Transgender women are women, just as cisgender women are women. The difference between "cisgender" and "transgender" lies in whether a person's gender matches the sex they were assigned at birth. Since transgender women were assigned male at birth but are women, they are not considered cisgender women. Therefore, while both transgender and cisgender women are women, transgender women are not cisgender women.

nepeta, you've absolutely nailed it with this sentence:
Once we dispense with something that can be objectively established we have destroyed the basis for even having that category.👏

That's exactly what I've been thinking for years, but couldn't quite get the right words for it, so I'm going to nick yours shamelessly and quote them repeatedly, if that's all right with you

You don't have a gender identity. There's no such thing. You're male or female, based entirely on your physical biology.

Thanks!

Gods, the tiptoeing women have to do ...

There is something all women share, to be called 'women.'

It's not height (tall or short etc.) or race (black or white etc.). It's not even, say, income or occupation or eye colour, or star sign or favourite food or marital status or political affiliation or religion or weight or hatred of beetroot or love of Agatha Christie. And so on.

We are seeking for the one thing all the very diverse women share, to be seen as members of the same group. And traditionally that has been being a human being of the female sex.

The above quote argues that it's not at all necessary to be female for someone to be in the group 'women', and if we take this as a hypothesis, then we should ask what, in their framework, replaces 'being of the female sex' in the definition of 'woman'.

And here I, at least, founder, because we are told that a person is a woman if that person says so, pretty much. It doesn't really matter if the underlying justification is an abstract gender identity or the many alternative explanations I have seen offered.

Once we dispense with something that can be objectively established we have destroyed the basis for even having that category. Why would we need categories reflecting how much people love or hate the colour pink, long hair, high heels, cars, trains, being choked/choking others in bed and so on?

The erasure of sex as the determining factor in who belongs to the category 'women' matters.

It matters, because female people are still the largest oppressed group on this planet, and erasing their name and existence in languages and laws makes fighting that oppression extremely cumbersome, if not impossible.

It matters, because the two bros, sexism and misogyny have no trouble defining what a 'woman' for them is, but we are stripped of the tools to fight them because the gender identity movement prioritises 1950s rigid gender roles and sexist stereotypes about femininity. This will make things worse for most women, not better, even in countries where women's legal rights already exist, at least partially.

I think there may be at least three reasons for men to “identify” as women.

A: For some, I accept that by their own admission they experience a sexual thrill from dressing and behaving based on their perception of women. Some of these go for the “fishnet tights, miniskirts and cleavage” look.

B: For some, it’s a gay man thing, but they don’t want to admit they are gay, so it’s more comfortable to think of themselves as women.

C: For some, I think it may be mostly discomfort with societal expectations of men. These “transwomen” are the equivalent of typical “transmen”. They are social misfits who don’t fit and are trying to escape their sex. They are vulnerable to social contagion. They are less likely to go for a sexualised look, at least to start with, than group A.

Of course, it’s possible that some people are a mixture of two of the above.

I'm not anti men. I love loads of men. I have a very special one on the sofa right now.

I know some men who say they are women. They know they aren't. They know I know they aren't. They know that I know why they say they are women, and they know it is their fetish. I don't hate them. But I refuse to be part of their sex life by participating in their fetish in public.

I know girls who think they are boys. All of them are in some way already broken. And this is their escape. I totally get it. I'd probably be there if I was a teen. I spent my life in construction based work. I get it.

But none of them have actually changed sex. And it is a lie to play along with it.

@valensiwalensi yes sure.

Mostly this is anecdotal as there is limited research on this issue.

Let’s start with Rapid onset gender dysphoria. A new phenomena. That has been largely attributed to a social contingent . ( see Cass)

Mostly occurring in pre pubescent females.

The tendency in this cohort is that once puberty is allowed to proceed they desist from gender questioning.

Of those who pursue this into adulthood they are mostly lesbians in relationships with other women. Suspected inner homophobia.

This female cohort are more likely to detransition.

Significantly, they as a group do not enter male spaces, do not participate in sport as a male, and do not fetishise male bodies. Quite the contrary, they are sexually attracted to women.

That is biological women with a cervix and a vagina.

Sorry have no data or references for you but you are at liberty to look it all up.

Could you elaborate?

@valensiwalensi hi your back then. It does not apply to trans men (women) it is a whole different issue.

How does this logic apply to Transmen?

@Superlambaanana i think they have loosened up some what.

I'm just waiting for it all to go away eventually.

And that AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment is exactly the issue.

Those male people declaring they 'feel like a woman', are speaking bollocks. They may have some feelings that they allocate to what 'female people' must feel like, because in their opinion, that is what female people feel. However, it is only ever what a male person says that a female person must feel like. Only ever a male who is experiencing life while presenting as a female person, never a true experience of a female person. Their entire interpretation of that experience is as a male person.

I cannot wait for this 'I am what I say I am' PoMo idiocy has been relegated to history as the pseudoscience theory it really is.

What IS a female gender identity?

I don’t understand what that means.
Do you feel your ovaries tickle despite not having any, then?
Do you feel an urge to wear pink stilettos?
Do you NEED to find it ridiculously awkward to pee in the woods?

Or is it just a strong wish to be something or someone you are not?
I sympathise with the latter. It is bloody hard being oneself rather a lot of the time.

Let us assume for a moment that women have innermost gender identities or essences. We'll call those female gender essences. As a corollory, we'll assume that men have innermost male gender essences.

Why is it being assumed that men who say they wish they were women have the same gender essences as women? Why is it assumed they automatically have female gender essences. Surely it would make more sense that they would have male essences, but with some sort of variation?

It is all too easy to declare a publicly open board to be an 'echo chamber' when the posters are effectively reflecting the general population's opinions. No... it is not an echo chamber when the general public also tends to agree with the majority of the board. But acknowledging that the general public holds opinions that some posters disagree with is inconvenient. They then come out with 'it is an echo chamber', which is supposedly meant to shame posters into silence.

😁@valensiwalensi see above not any echo chamber