JK Rowling on Billy Bragg and other progressive male class warriors

Spot on, @Floisme.

@NefertitiV
Feminism is not of the left or of the right. Political leanings influence what a woman considers a good solution, but that's it. The fundamentals cut across party lines.

It's the left wing (and centrist) feminists who deny, correctly, that they are right wing. Right wing feminists do not. They are not embarrassed about being right wing, as you think they should be. We're all feminists.

Misogyny does not have a party affiliation, either. EdithStourton's abusive relationship analogy is probably "offensive" to you because it hits home. But it is a fact that this indivdualistic, capitalist, misogynistic men's rights movement has been embraced by the "progressive" left, and is fuelled by a rich seam of misogyny in the left.

Soz cross post!

It's also a useful tactic for the left because anyone can do it. You don't need any special knowledge or understanding; you don't need a script; you don't even need to have seen 'The Invasion of the Body Snatchers'. All you have to do is point and yell, 'Tory!'

The downside is, it avoids having to try and get a grasp of the issues, so no-one learns how to debate them properly. (There used to be some honourable exceptions but I'm not sure if that's still the case.) Sooner or later that bites them on the arse.

She really can, that's exactly what she did there isn't it. Love it 👏

Telling you you're turning right wing is a standard tactic on the left. I have to say, it can be very effective because a) it stings - silly but it does. b) There's a good chance it'll shut you up and c) even if it doesn't, it'll put you on the defensive and shift the conversation away from whatever point you were trying to make.

Why do these things have to be defined as "right" or "left"? Surely if an issue concerns us it's an issue to be discussed. Pinning it down to right or left immediately robs it of relevance to those on "the other side" who then adopt the opposing view as a matter of course. And they're all the same no matter what political tribe they belong to. Who remembers Gordon Brown's efforts to get Tories to join him to discuss matters of national importance? They were apoplectic with fury at the very suggestion. He also said that we must invest in Africa because if we didn't, Europe would be subject to waves of people seeking asylum and employment. Who listened?

So to sex and gender. Why do we have to be defined by our sex or gender which is only a part of who we are. Yes it's good that the request to live and let live is being broadcast, but it shouldn't ever have become a political issue to beat "the other side" with, or a bandwagon for unscrupulous politicians to climb on. There are more important things to address.

Mindless definition is the bane of western culture in my opinion. It's lazy thinking. Thank goodness JKR is using her intelligence and is brave and articulate enough to put her views across.

Pompous Male Class Wanker also works

@EdithStourton

I'd love to know, @NefertitiV, just how you learned to engage in such an arse-about-face, bad faith manner.

I'd say it's you that's engaging in bad faith here. I simply echoed your own words back at you and you didn't like it. Not only that, you pulled out an 'abusive husband' analogy, and that's offensive.

@DramaLlamaBangBang

There is a difference between the hard Left andcthe centre left. Part of the problem is the attitude that everyone who doesn't agree with you is 'Right wing'. The Left and Right are spectrums. It's just the same as the Trumpists calling everyone communists or Rishi Sunak being called a socialist by some in his party. Its ridiculous.

Absolutely there are spectrums. However, I think a good deal of feminism has stepped over the centre into the right. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but the consistent denial is odd.

@AstonsStolenData

How does me wanting the left to listen to poor, disabled women of color and take our concerns seriously indicate that I'm right wing?

You just wrote "If a party makes it clear that they don't value/won't listen to and take seriously the voices of poor, disabled women of color and doesn't care about their concerns or safety, nor the safety of their children, just how progressive are they? I don't think valuing their voices makes me right wing." I'd wonder what or who led you to this extreme view, and by extension, what party you think would listen. If - after 14 years - you believe that's the Tories, then yes, you're right-wing.

Please be specific about why you think that the right is more concerned and aligned with poor ppl, disabled ppl, POC, women, or children than the left and how that is progressive.

This brings in a number of other issues not aligned to the original question. I don't think the right is more aligned with those issues, anyway - they've just hopped onto a handy bandwagon with some of them given an election is looming.

It would be great if you could engage without twisting my words.

The Left drove women to right-wing outlets. It doesn't mean that the women in question have stopped believing in a social safety net or maintaining the integrity of the NHS or that capitalism needs controls and so on.

The Left needs to wake up or it will find that some women have become so disaffected that they'll never trust the main left-wing parties again. Instead we're politically homeless. Fuck knows who I'll be voting for next time around.

This is the fault of the Left, not the women. To blame women here is perverse, like saying a woman has now 'deliberately made herself a single parent' because she walked away from her abusive husband and that she should 'take responsibility' for the break-up of the marriage. No, mate: the situation is the fault of the husband (the political party) who screamed abuse and refused to listen and put her in dangerous situations.

I'd love to know, @NefertitiV, just how you learned to engage in such an arse-about-face, bad faith manner.

I came on to say similar.
The Tories blew the power of the left out to the sidelines, and even before then them (Blaire etc) you can hardly describe Blair-ism as "left".
Yet gender ideology has overwhelmed our entire society. Main reason being, the ideology fits very neatly with extreme capitalist, neo-liberal values.

The ideology has been pushed most hard by Northern America which hasn't had a sniff of a left wing government in anyone's living memory.

I get that it's a reaction to the left's accusations of being "in bed with the right wing" but she'd have more clout by pointing out how obviously right wing gender ideology actually is.

I think @MoltenLasagne has it. As a young woman I bought completely into the simplistic dichotomy of Left=Good, Right=Bad.

When the Left does something like reduce women to a feeling in a male head and shows you their true beliefs about women while patronisingly informing you that you are a bigot by refusing to accept your place as costume, it comes as a shock. This is the good side!

And then you think about it a little more and talk to different people and discover that people who are on the right are not all card carrying, finger tapping, Mr Burnsesque villains. That also comes as a shock. This is the bad side!

This is what happened to me. I am now trying to unravel my bundle of beliefs and see which are mine and which I ended up carrying because I wanted to be a Good Person. From what I have read on here, I don't think I am the only one.

There is a difference between the hard Left andcthe centre left. Part of the problem is the attitude that everyone who doesn't agree with you is 'Right wing'. The Left and Right are spectrums. It's just the same as the Trumpists calling everyone communists or Rishi Sunak being called a socialist by some in his party. Its ridiculous.

And the right waved it through because they have always fundamentally believed that men are masculine and go out to work, and women are feminine and look after the home.

I think it’s more nuanced, and less political than that. The political left has a traditionalist streak, but for different reasons than the right.

I think what's most annoying is that we expected better of the lefties. When they turned out to not give a shit about half the population because 'gender', well that was disappointing, wasn't it.

“it was a shock to me when the left suddenly went every bit as regressive as the right I'd left. It's only been as it's become clear that the left was pissing women off that suddenly people like Brendan O'Neill and Douglas Murray suddenly saw any merit in Julie Bindle's many, many years of feminist campaigning.”

That’s an interesting insight, Rayon

I think that's right, it is about male ego. But I don't believe for a nano-second that the right are bastions of support for women.

Noticing it in the left is more about our disappointment that they're not doing better. We'd like to think that because they ostensibly support a more equal society, that would include women. Unfortunately that's the catch: it doesn't.

Anyone who thinks JRM has our interests at heart though or even Rishi Sunak if it was a choice between his interests and ours is making a BIG mistake. It's just that Billy Bragg and his ilk have done a good job of pretending they care about women that it stings that bit more.

I think it somewhat does, actually. I'm not necessarily suggesting there's anything inherently wrong with that, but few people here don't seem to want to outright acknowledge that they are right-wing. Why is that?

@EdithStourton

If the fucking Left had done its fucking job, women would not have had to rely on the right-wing media to get the word out. And then when we read an article in the Mail, or have admiration for some of the policies or speeches of certain right-wing politicians, we get shouted at for giving succour to the right.

Hmm. So you agree, then, that feminism is leaning to the right now? But apparently this is the fault of the left? When do feminists - women - take responsibility for their own actions?

Tbh I see this as a failure of feminism to accommodate - or get society to accommodate - women's needs.

And the right waved it through because they have always fundamentally believed that men are masculine and go out to work, and women are feminine and look after the home. So if a man is feminine he's a woman (obviously!).

As someone who left the right as a teenager because I didn't want to prioritise marriage over being able to look after myself, it was a shock to me when the left suddenly went every bit as regressive as the right I'd left. It's only been as it's become clear that the left was pissing women off that suddenly people like Brendan O'Neill and Douglas Murray suddenly saw any merit in Julie Bindle's many, many years of feminist campaigning.

Watching women's rights become "right coded" during all this has been quite the sight. I wonder how long it will last?