Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer

He's cut ties with Labour and joined the more extreme Left, the most 'fasionable' causes, the more metropolitan elite Left wing student causes that move away from supporting the working classes, it is not a surprise.

It was this nonsense I was referring to.

Thanks for the essay. Very thorough. Was thinking it would be a good one to send to people who aren't as embroiled and deep into all of this, but showing interest and/or confusion.
My only reservation is that the latter part that goes into the ultra/light/twitter debates might lose people outside of this a bit!
The key, opening section about distinguishing between equality and belief claims is excellent. As well as the way it breaks down all of the key issues around sport/women's spaces/gender affirmative approach with children/affect on LGB etc.
Someone put alot of careful work into this

No, I don't think I have.

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

Huh? Have you quoted the right post?

Building a picture where child safeguarding is framed as a concern that is related to the views of right wing and religious people (many of whom believe that women should perform strict roles in society based on sexist stereotypes) does not weaken the case for child safeguarding?

I think you'll find it's Labour that moved away from supporting the working-class.

And I don't disagree with safeguarding children or single-sex spaces, nor do I think it weakens the case for either. I said so.

Reading this reminds me I still have a soft spot for Billy [hides in corner]

He's come across like an absolute idiot on X on the gender issue. But I still struggle to believe he's actually a horrible person or that he genuinely hates women.

I think probably a previous poster sums it up:
he's not very bright and he's extremely obstinate and opinionated

I like to think if Billy and JKR met over a pint or a brew they could have a good chat about the gender issue, agree to disagree, and go away not actually hating each other. Maybe that's wishful thinking. But the internet brings out the worst in all of us I think.

Billy is very pleased with the piece:

https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1784549008620351673

Haha I love it, do you think he doesn't realise how he's been painted?

Or maybe he does, but is just being polite.

Either way, so delightful. This is the content I read FWR for

Yep. Once the Guardian reader types (I class myself in this demographic) see more reverse ferreting and hear more about the irreversible harm that has happened to children, conversations will become easier to have.

The next logical step is that we get to more of a balance of rights, where those who believe that they have a gender identity can exist alongside those who don't, without anyone having that belief forced upon them. This (very long!) essay explores the balance of belief and discrimination really well:
https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

It glosses over autogynophilia, perhaps because the author is a man (and doesn't experience the disgust of being pulled in to someone's fantasy, without consent, that women would feel) and perhaps because the essay is long enough anyway. Either way, it's an example of a good and safe place for Be Kinders to start conversations about why it's OK to say no to men identifying their way in to women's spaces and sports etc. When I've had IRL conversations to challenge the impact on gender identity belief, the difference between belief and discrimination has been a key door opener for me.

I'll be honest I was never a fan of Billy Bragg at the start of his career. Nothing he's done over the last few years has made me consider revisiting that position!

A phrase I came across the other day that I like very much: I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.

I think BB disagrees.

Be careful not to say which Woolworths though, you angry woman.

He is very loyal to his tribe but seems to suggetst that even if 'The Left' are wrong on an issue that J.K.Rowling and Julie Bindel should have looked away, to support the team.
What's the point of democratic debate if you can't question issues that your side are getting wrong, like puberty blockers, women's rights and women's sports- we have the right to object even if some right wing people agree with you.

He's cut ties with Labour and joined the more extreme Left, the most 'fasionable' causes, the more metropolitan elite Left wing student causes that move away from supporting the working classes, it is not a surprise.

Regarding Billy not being very bright, it seems that he also can’t tell the difference between a ‘trans kid’ and a child with gender dysphoria.

I would have liked to hear his views on nepotism. I'm sure there are plenty of talented young musicians who would have jumped at the chance to tour with him. Seems being a socialist doesn't stop him from indulging in a little bit of nepo.

Before anyone says "Oh, but any father should have the chance to help his child..." or similar - he put himself on what he perceives as the moral high ground. Can't complain when people hold him to it.

I think if your self righteousness bubble is big enough you have no need of intellectual self respect.

Billy's on the facebook thanking the writer for a lovely write-up, by the way...

“Because when I get depressed or cynical, I have the privilege of being able to go out in the dark and sing my songs, and when everyone claps, I don’t feel so bad. What I hope to do in my gigs is for the audience to feel like that too. That at least there’s this roomful of people in their town who do give a shit. Music can’t change the world, but it can do that.”’

Ah I miss those innocent days of youth when we all affirmed each other in our right-on-ness with marching and singing. It's a lovely feeling.

Sadly I grew up and started realising no one tribe gets it all right, and I was going to have to start thinking for myself. Annoying but necessary once you hit thirty or so, if you want to maintain your intellectual self-respect.

Do you not feel embarrassed banging on a about a $15k donation 8 years ago, to a radfem group on another continent?

It also betrays a fairly crucial misunderstanding of what feminism actually is. There's no 'one group', there's really no one 'movement'. There's not a central council that signs off on the wims' manifesto. Most feminist activism is small and grass roots. One group's objectives will be different to another. WOLF getting a small grant has no impact on the feminist organisation that lives next door to WOLF because there's not a central pot of cash. I am not tarnished because a group of women accepted funding that I would not have.

Feminism is fractured and argumentative and often very individualised. My brand of feminism would use the word women's liberation from patriarchy, the lassie that sits beside me at work would say it is about equal choice. It's a broad church and all the better for that.

And you CANNOT put the same lens on the US as you do on the UK. The contexts are wholly and completely different.

At that point theose who hold such, and certain, positions on the basis that they are 'good, kind' people will suggest that all they really ever cared about was protecting marginalised and vulnerable 'trans/people'.

At this point will come the opportunity to unpack what is meant by a 'trans person'. Becaue these people have also never questioned the basics, or reflected on exactly what having a 'trans identity' means or implies.

By uncovering and revealing the conceptual nature of 'gender identity' it can be shown that there is no such thing as a 'trans child' - simply children, and others, who are struggling with various personal issues, feelings, discomfort, dysphoria who are framing their desires, or discomforts, through the lens of gender identity theory.

That’s a heck of a stretch for guilt by association. Not only are WOLF guilty for sitting at the same table as the far right but feminists in the UK also need scrutiny because they sit at the same table as people in another country who have sat at the same table….
How many degrees of separation does it take before we’re not witches?

😂😂