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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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Abhannmor · 28/04/2024 19:39

Maaate · 28/04/2024 10:12

Oh is Silly Billy starting to realise the wind has changed and trying to backtrack?

Sounds like it. Today I was talking to a guy who was ' cancelled ' by some of his old college friends after he shared a Guardian editorial piece of all things. It was insufficiently TRA and one of them picked up on it etc etc.

I asked him how they would react to Cass and the change in the zeitgeist. ' Seamlessy' he replied ' they'll just say they agreed with Graham Linehan and JKR all along. Of course gnc kids just needs love and support and are not born in the wrong body. But we weren't horrible about it like the Terfs'.

These little foot soldiers and snitches can slip away into the crowd. It's harder for the likes of Bragg and Ruth Hunt.

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 19:31

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 19:12

Obviously not. How have made the leap from me pointing out the clear and obvious support for gender criticism from some absolute loons, to me being on the other side of the table? You sound like you're part of a cult that can't deal with an uncomfortable reality.

There was clear and obvious support from the far right for transvestism (now referred to as being transgender) during the second world war, with many photos showing cross-dressing senior officers in the Nazi party.
I'm not sure what it proves though, other than there are some people on the far right who embrace the idea of transgender identity and some people on the far right who reject it.

Terref · 28/04/2024 19:24

RandySavage · 28/04/2024 10:21

Funny how politely Billy argues with a male journalist, eh?

If I were Billy I'd maybe look at some of the people I was sitting with. He's on the same side of the table as Isla Bryson, Barbie Kardashian, Dana Rivers and Sandi Toksvig - surely that's enough to make anyone question themselves.

I've been utterly gobsmacked at the difference between Bragg's responses to males and to females. It's so fucking brazen and obvious!

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 28/04/2024 19:14

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 19:12

Obviously not. How have made the leap from me pointing out the clear and obvious support for gender criticism from some absolute loons, to me being on the other side of the table? You sound like you're part of a cult that can't deal with an uncomfortable reality.

So if you think we’re connected to the far right that’s just a reasonable question to ask but if we ask if you support the things that people on the other side support we’re part of a cult that can’t deal with reality.

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 19:12

InvisibleBuffy · 28/04/2024 15:53

I could ask the same of you about the people sitting on your side of the table.
Do you welcome and support WPATH in adding a chapter on eunuchs in their latest best practice document at the same time as removing any minimum age restrictions?
Do you welcome and support the parents of Kai Shappelly 'hard spanking' and forcing their two year old child to pray for hours for liking 'girl' toys?
What about welcoming and supporting the people who drew dicks on the pavement outside Filia last year before the vigil for murdered women took place?
What about supporting and welcoming Juno Dawson saying that gay men are only gay as a consolation prize because they can't be women?
What about the staff at the Tavistock laughing about there going to be no gay children left? Do you welcome and support that?
Your side of the table is rife with deep homophobia and violence against women.
And our side, all you have is a hell of of a stretch to somehow to connect women in the UK to a donation made in the US eight years ago.
I suggest you take much harder look at your own side of the table before you start mudslinging at ours. Trans activism is far more 'far right' in its treatment of women and gay people than feminists ever were.

Obviously not. How have made the leap from me pointing out the clear and obvious support for gender criticism from some absolute loons, to me being on the other side of the table? You sound like you're part of a cult that can't deal with an uncomfortable reality.

Datun · 28/04/2024 19:03

BonnyBo · 28/04/2024 18:31

Omg, he STILL doesn't know what gender critical means.

Datun · 28/04/2024 19:01

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:03

C+P of JKR response for the no-twatters out there:
This comment by billybragg perfectly sums up what left wing women have taken from left wing men over the last few years. The problem isn’t whether Julie Bindel and I are correct on the issues, but that certain right-wingers agree with us.

If you’ve spent any time at all on the left of politics, you’re familiar with the progressive male class warrior, usually middle-class himself, whose interest in women’s issues begins and ends with sex work, stripping and abortions. He might claim to be a feminist ally and mutter vaguely about ‘equality’ if the need arises, but when a genuine assault on women’s rights erupted under his nose, he cut left wing women adrift without a second thought. He expected us to be so blindly tribal that we’d surrender single sex spaces, jettison the very language we use to describe ourselves, give up fair sport, agree rapists should be locked up in women’s prisons and that lesbians are bigots for not wanting to sleep with the penis-ed, because (horrors!) some people on the right thought these things were wrong, too.

Over the last few years, a huge number of PMCWs have become men’s rights activists in all but name, and it’s been profoundly depressing, if not entirely unexpected, to see how enjoyable they’ve found it. Even while attacking women for finding themselves on the same side as right-wingers, the PMCWs stampeded to join the team that was threatening women with rape and violence, harassing women’s conferences, attempting to block access to gender critical events and physically assaulting female demonstrators. PMCWs are everywhere online, lecturing women reliant on state-run services for not welcoming the male-bodied into communal changing rooms and rape crisis shelters, presuming to police women’s language and tone, turning a blind eye to all statistics on male sexual violence that might contradict the ‘you’re all scaremongering bigots’ narrative and demonstrating that their deepest empathy will always be reserved for those who were born with a penis.

The truth is that the left has fucked up monumentally on gender identity ideology and until it owns the mistake, it will continue to hand the right valid talking points. As more and more PMCWs realise this, they’ll take shameless refuge in accusations that we, the women criticising the injustice and insanity of gender identity ideology, were enabling the far-right. The fact is that they’ve done exactly that, by refusing to accept that there was anything wrong with a movement that was causing serious harm to troubled young people, trampling all over women’s rights and seeking to remove single-sex services for the most vulnerable.

The sense of betrayal women on the left feel towards men like Bragg will take a long time to disappear, if it ever does. I think we all take some grim satisfaction, though, in the fact that evidence of the PMCWs’ misogyny and complicity is a matter of public record, because the panicky back-pedalling and whitewashing that’s just begun is quite something to behold.

Pesky GenZ AT peskygenz
Left-wing male “feminists” will never be in any position to lecture us. Especially when their support of women primarily extends to causes that benefit men.

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Yep. When a man's 'feminism' is largely centred on ensuring that women can keep selling sex and taking off their clothes for money, it's not a massive surprise he has a problem with women who refuse to hand over whatever men want.

Jane, Empress of the Known Universe AT blablafishcakes
That is EXACTLY billybragg's brand of "feminism".
[see photo]

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Called it.

Absolutely superb. And capped off by that photo which illustrates everything she said sooo perfectly, it's breathtaking.

Buffypaws · 28/04/2024 18:39

I can’t believe how stupid Bragg appears to be.

However mumsnet is getting a good review over on x.

Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer
BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 18:36

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 28/04/2024 17:23

Beautifully put.

Agreed 👌

ruffler45 · 28/04/2024 18:34

Does everyone else switch off when BB sticks his head above the parapet every now and again, or is it just me?

BonnyBo · 28/04/2024 18:31

He’s still at it

https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1784596220331102334

Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer
IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 28/04/2024 17:23

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:06

My point, that I've been banging on about for years:

The right wing are exploiting an area the left wing have traditionally occupied but have recently neglected for their own agenda. If the left wing hadn't been caught napping / had a total deleriction of duty to women then they wouldn't have the right wing squatting on 'their patch' to begin with.

Its not the left wing feminist women who have moved. They've stayed in exactly the same position.

Beautifully put.

DameMaud · 28/04/2024 17:21

bilgewater · 28/04/2024 17:13

Thanks for this thread. I couldn't bear to click on the Observer article earlier as I assumed it would be the usual 'hallowed thoughts of Saint Billy' stuff. Will go and read it now.

I'm the same bilgewater.
Reading the thread, and JKR's words, is like putting on a lovely, protective cloak before diving in!

bilgewater · 28/04/2024 17:13

Thanks for this thread. I couldn't bear to click on the Observer article earlier as I assumed it would be the usual 'hallowed thoughts of Saint Billy' stuff. Will go and read it now.

duc748 · 28/04/2024 17:13

There's no shittier position than "Sex work is just work (but not for my daughters, of course)".

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:06

My point, that I've been banging on about for years:

The right wing are exploiting an area the left wing have traditionally occupied but have recently neglected for their own agenda. If the left wing hadn't been caught napping / had a total deleriction of duty to women then they wouldn't have the right wing squatting on 'their patch' to begin with.

Its not the left wing feminist women who have moved. They've stayed in exactly the same position.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:03

LizzieSiddal · 28/04/2024 16:06

This response from JK is superb, as usual.

I’d like to think #pmcw means Predominantly Middle Class Wankers.

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

C+P of JKR response for the no-twatters out there:
This comment by billybragg perfectly sums up what left wing women have taken from left wing men over the last few years. The problem isn’t whether Julie Bindel and I are correct on the issues, but that certain right-wingers agree with us.

If you’ve spent any time at all on the left of politics, you’re familiar with the progressive male class warrior, usually middle-class himself, whose interest in women’s issues begins and ends with sex work, stripping and abortions. He might claim to be a feminist ally and mutter vaguely about ‘equality’ if the need arises, but when a genuine assault on women’s rights erupted under his nose, he cut left wing women adrift without a second thought. He expected us to be so blindly tribal that we’d surrender single sex spaces, jettison the very language we use to describe ourselves, give up fair sport, agree rapists should be locked up in women’s prisons and that lesbians are bigots for not wanting to sleep with the penis-ed, because (horrors!) some people on the right thought these things were wrong, too.

Over the last few years, a huge number of PMCWs have become men’s rights activists in all but name, and it’s been profoundly depressing, if not entirely unexpected, to see how enjoyable they’ve found it. Even while attacking women for finding themselves on the same side as right-wingers, the PMCWs stampeded to join the team that was threatening women with rape and violence, harassing women’s conferences, attempting to block access to gender critical events and physically assaulting female demonstrators. PMCWs are everywhere online, lecturing women reliant on state-run services for not welcoming the male-bodied into communal changing rooms and rape crisis shelters, presuming to police women’s language and tone, turning a blind eye to all statistics on male sexual violence that might contradict the ‘you’re all scaremongering bigots’ narrative and demonstrating that their deepest empathy will always be reserved for those who were born with a penis.

The truth is that the left has fucked up monumentally on gender identity ideology and until it owns the mistake, it will continue to hand the right valid talking points. As more and more PMCWs realise this, they’ll take shameless refuge in accusations that we, the women criticising the injustice and insanity of gender identity ideology, were enabling the far-right. The fact is that they’ve done exactly that, by refusing to accept that there was anything wrong with a movement that was causing serious harm to troubled young people, trampling all over women’s rights and seeking to remove single-sex services for the most vulnerable.

The sense of betrayal women on the left feel towards men like Bragg will take a long time to disappear, if it ever does. I think we all take some grim satisfaction, though, in the fact that evidence of the PMCWs’ misogyny and complicity is a matter of public record, because the panicky back-pedalling and whitewashing that’s just begun is quite something to behold.

Pesky GenZ AT peskygenz
Left-wing male “feminists” will never be in any position to lecture us. Especially when their support of women primarily extends to causes that benefit men.

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Yep. When a man's 'feminism' is largely centred on ensuring that women can keep selling sex and taking off their clothes for money, it's not a massive surprise he has a problem with women who refuse to hand over whatever men want.

Jane, Empress of the Known Universe AT blablafishcakes
That is EXACTLY billybragg's brand of "feminism".
[see photo]

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Called it.

Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer
Oblomov24 · 28/04/2024 16:27

Great response from her as usual.

illinivich · 28/04/2024 16:07

there are many more men (and women) who are followers of the alt-right fundamentalists who are using the narrative of protecting children, or of concern for women's rights to mask their bigotry.

Right wing people love their children and are concerned for womens rights, too.

The idea that anyone would only campaign to stop their children being medicalised, or their daughters in changing rooms with men, because of hidden bigotry and not the saftey of their children is conspiracy theory level bonkers.

LizzieSiddal · 28/04/2024 16:06

This response from JK is superb, as usual.

I’d like to think #pmcw means Predominantly Middle Class Wankers.

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

InvisibleBuffy · 28/04/2024 15:53

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

I could ask the same of you about the people sitting on your side of the table.
Do you welcome and support WPATH in adding a chapter on eunuchs in their latest best practice document at the same time as removing any minimum age restrictions?
Do you welcome and support the parents of Kai Shappelly 'hard spanking' and forcing their two year old child to pray for hours for liking 'girl' toys?
What about welcoming and supporting the people who drew dicks on the pavement outside Filia last year before the vigil for murdered women took place?
What about supporting and welcoming Juno Dawson saying that gay men are only gay as a consolation prize because they can't be women?
What about the staff at the Tavistock laughing about there going to be no gay children left? Do you welcome and support that?
Your side of the table is rife with deep homophobia and violence against women.
And our side, all you have is a hell of of a stretch to somehow to connect women in the UK to a donation made in the US eight years ago.
I suggest you take much harder look at your own side of the table before you start mudslinging at ours. Trans activism is far more 'far right' in its treatment of women and gay people than feminists ever were.

upinclouds · 28/04/2024 15:44

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2024 08:53

Bottom line is, he's not very bright and he's extremely obstinate and opinionated. The journalist is absolutely right when he says that X/Twitter is not a good place for a nuanced, complex debate. Won't stop Bragg, though.

Nailed it. He clearly just doesn't understand what he's arguing for or against, and continues to double down on it.

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 28/04/2024 15:30

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

Oh come on. We’re hostile because we’re tired of lazy accusations of far right funding when almost everything we do is crowdfunded from small donations by individual women and every time we do a crowd funder you can see that this is where the money is coming from.

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 15:21

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

I would never look for nor welcome the support of right wing fundamentalists. I've not seen anything to suggest such support is welcomed by UK organisations that are concerned about child safeguarding (or women's rights) in relation to gender identity.

I've posted all sorts of things about religion on MN and X, e.g. using the example that I would push back heavily if Christians insisted that children's biology books stated that conception was possible without sperm (thankfully, I'm not forced in to a position where I'm having a discussion about Jesus' paternity because Christians aren't demanding that everyone adopts their beliefs as facts) and I've not had "hostility". My understanding of the criticisms of your posts is that it's the guilt by association that is being called out.

InvisibleBuffy · 28/04/2024 15:20

The problem for Billy is that he has finally realised that there is a problem but he has far too much pride to acknowledge, even to himself, that he's been a part of it.
So he's desperately trying to reverse ferret out of the corner he's backed himself into, chasing his little ferret tail round and round in increasing confusion.

Also, big lol at the usual 'far-right funding' claims.
At the moment, I think anyone still making this kind of claim is not only hard of thinking but also incredibly lazy.
Anyone looking at the actual women involved in women's rights e.g. Bindel and Rowling as well as the trade unionists, academics, leaders of refuges, feminist groups, left wing politicians etc and its clear that it's absolute nonsense.