Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer

Like countless thousands on the left, whether attacking women, Jews or the working class, they themselves have turned into the monsters a generation ago they sought to slaughter.

I think Douglas Adams summed it up rather well: "Michael usually referred to his mother as an old battle axe, but if she was fairly to be compared to a battleaxe it would only be to an exquisitely crafted, beautifully balanced battleaxe, with an elegant minimum of fine engraving which stopped just short of its gleaming razored edge. One swipe from such an instrument and you wouldn’t even know you’d been hit until you tried to look at your watch a bit later and discovered that your arm wasn’t on."

'Feminists — all women — have been deeply and profoundly betrayed by Left-wing men. They have preened and postured about being such good trans allies while we have been attacked, abused, harassed, libelled and shunned for standing up for women’s rights. They turned a blind eye when lesbians were told by transactivists that we are bigots for excluding men from our dating pool. These men clapped along as we were losing our jobs and reputations, agreeing with the zealots that we just needed to be more kind.
Men on the Left rarely prioritise women’s issues, and we are expected to dance to their tune in order to be deemed acceptable. As the late feminist author Andrea Dworkin wrote: “To Right-wing men, we are private property. To Left-wing men, we are public property.”'

Hear hear, Julie Bindel. And Andrea Dworkin was sadly correct.

I just think Bragg is a bit dim. He doesn't get the idea that if someone makes a point, then you try and argue against that point, rather than just shouting "You're on the same table as this bad person, therefore you're also a bad person." When you look at how good JKR is at formulating a logical argument, then it's not an equal fight. Not just that, though - he doesn't even understand that she's wiping the floor with him, because he's not clever enough.

Wow so not only can he not tell the difference between a feminist and a religious fundamentalist, he also can't tell the difference between a good write up and a hatchet job.

Mind you this is the guy who also can't tell the difference between a good song and a tuneless cacophony, so...

Yes that’s a very relevant quote.

She’s very good at getting to the point.

Makes me think of the quote from Harry Potter "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."

Anyone who could think that you have to buy wholesale into every single idea that "your side" proposes without questioning is not principled just a person who has picked a style off a shelf

I have access to it, so I will. Like the article you posted, it looks interesting although I can't quite see that it's backing up what you're claiming.

Since you've clearly read it cover to cover and imbibed its messages, what have you taken away from it?

Julie’s response:

https://unherd.com/newsroom/billy-bragg-still-doesnt-understand-feminism/

It took me embarrassingly long to get your username.

I came up with "gender ideology" for myself in a post a few years ago as the best word to describe the wider system of thinking based on the belief in and primacy of gender identity. I only found out quite recently the same phrase had a history of being used to mean something quite different. Since then I've tended to use "genderism" instead.

I'd guess that's common for quite a lot of the GC "movement" - a genuine grassroots movement where individuals are independently coming up with similar concerns, asking similiar questions , coming to similar conclusions and looking around to see if anyone else is thinking the same things.

Think ink blots starting separately, getting bigger and joining up.

Completely different to the TRA movement which been characterised by outreach activists targetting education, politics, law etc to "educate" people into a specific set of beliefs and worldview that they would not have independently arrived at.

Have you read Anti-Gender Politics in the Populist Moment, Agnieszka Graff and Elżbieta Korolczuk?

😂Haud me back.

Pope Francis was only 'elected' in 2013...... ( not the 1990s) and it is he who has become vocal about 'gender ideology'.....but even then it was after the grassroots movement had already defined the terms/terminology of the debate.

By the way - that book you referenced was only published in 2022........This grassroots movement is far older than that. This grassroots movement has defined the terms of the debate.

No, it didn't. People have been coining terms on here and elsewhere for years.
You've clearly not been part of the movement to have such a jaundiced view.
Why are you so keen to try to smear and link what has been a hugely influential movement with " bad faith actors", anyway?

There are "bad faith" actors in all fields. Look at George Galloway. Look at some of the 'loons' who take part in Trans Rights rallies. Look at people like Dawn Butler who thinks think babies are born without a sex; like David Lammy who thinks men can grow a cervix. There are loons such as Billy Bragg, everywhere....Stalin was a bit of a loon.......There are trustees on the boards of Mermaids who were found to be active paedophile sympathisers. There are " loons" in all walks of life.

Hitler was a vegetarian, so is Anne Widdicombe......does that mean that "right thinking" people should abandon the idea of being vegetarian?

Where did the term "gender ideology" come from? It didn't come from either the grassroots or from critical theory did it? It came from the Vatican in the 90s as a catch all to describe feminist, reproductive, and LGBT rights issues.

It's naive to believe there's any grassroots movements today that aren't manipulated, infected or co-opted by bad faith actors. Even something like the anti-ulez movement.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/27/tory-staff-running-network-of-anti-ulez-facebook-groups-riddled-with-racism-and-abuse

Have you read Anti-Gender Politics in the Populist Moment, Agnieszka Graff and Elżbieta Korolczuk?

Dig a bit deeper Billy,we can still see your arse,

an anecdote in which Billy Said Something Therefore Billy Was Right.

100%

I suppose it's supposed to be a sort of revelation? In Which Billy Realised Someone Else Was Bad and Bravely Said So.

You know what has just struck me about that anecdote? It’s not an anecdote in which Billy Learned Something or Someone Else Made A Good Point or even Billy Was Not Sure About Something And Events Showed He Was Right? It is purely and simply an anecdote in which Billy Said Something Therefore Billy Was Right.

What better illustration could there be of what sort of a man he is? Convinced of his own rightness, uninterested in what anyone else has to say, not requiring any evidence beyond his own assertion. Up himself, in fact.

I mean. This is the same argument I heard from union members when I challenged them on whether counter protesting at a drag queen story hour was really where we should be focusing our energy on. There is power in the unions indeed.

When you can only think about ideas in tribalistic terms or in terms of being " on the right or wrong side of history/ or a table" then it is suggestive that you are more concerned with conformity to group expectation than anything else.

I'm not sure how long you have been posting of the subject of trans ideology/gender identity theory?

But this has been a grassroots movement of women ( and men too). It has not been top down. Just six years ago there was literally " No Debate". That was the slogan that was being pushed by Stonewall and by the Labour Party, amongst others.

There was no discussion in parliament; there were no news articles; there was no critical or reflectve journalism at all. Women were even being banned from this board. What people have been able to achieve through solidarity and supporting one another; raising funds to fight court cases; political activity at local level; letter writing ; complaints; people putting their neck, and their careers, on the line.........is quite amazing.....and gratifying.

If a wide range of people ( including some you don't approve of) are now discussing the issue, or have developed a view on it - that is thanks to the grassroots movement in Britain. That's it. People have responsibility for developing their own critical thinking...it is not the responsibility of what has come to be termed 'the Gender Critical Movement'.

Arguments have validity in and of themselves - regardless of who adopts them.

It reminds me of a TV debate I did back with Red Wedge; on one side of the table was me, Jerry Dammers and Clare Short, and on the other Stewart Copeland, a Tory MP called Greg Knight and Chris Dean from the Redskins. Now, me and Chris had toured during the miners’ strike, but I looked at Chris, and pointed to who he was sitting with, and told him he was on the wrong side of the table. And that’s what I see with Rowling and the others: they are on the wrong side of the table.”

Sorry to keep banging on about this but who died and made him King Of Who We Can Agree With On One Issue But Not Others?

It is such an idiotic position to take, not least because as pp pointed out he has some extremely RW bedfellows too.

What " uncomfortable reality" are you talking about?