The Grauniad on a damaging “reality” show

Oh for god's sake. Would you please not be so vile about Jackie and her parents?

My 2 year old girl would say things along the lines of, when I grow I will be a boy, or, boys have a willy, I will grow a willy. She was pretty forward with language for her age. She certainly wouldn't have been capable of a sentence like that until well past 3.

At no point did I assume she was trans for saying this, it is the simple complete non understanding of a 2 year old about how anything really works. They are learning about the world.

I also didn't start to coach her on phrases to memorise to tell people she is actually a boy, but that's just my parenting 🤔

Of course, you’re right, that’s the fundamental issue with adults and gender ideology and the harm to dc

There is no way you can train children to be confused about sex. We are animals. Our reproductive instincts will always override our "socialisation".
This is basically the same regressive argument that children will be "turned gay" by education about homosexuality.

The regressive bit is surely thinking that it's the end of the world if a straight teenager experiments with other teenagers of the same sex. After all, people can be confused about their sexuality - gay people often say they didn't consciously realise they were gay because they grew up without gay role models. The difference is that thinking maybe you're bisexual or whatever doesn't lead you to serious medical interventions, cause diagnostic overshadowing if you have mental health problems, or make you confused about boundaries, risks or biological sex.

'Toddlers are learning to make 3-word sentences.'

https://raisingchildren.net.au/toddlers/development/language-development/language-2-3-years

A two year old talking about a magic penis fairy waving a wand is bullshit.

Of course it's not anything a normal child would say at aged 2 - do they say penis and vagina? Where do they get the idea that these are interchangeable and equivalent organs that can be swapped? Sounds like bullshit to me, or grooming a child by asking leading questions.

Another damaging reality show, of course, is 'I am Jazz', and all of the previous TV appearances, starting age 6, Jazz was exposed to.

''...when a two-year-old comes up and says 'Mommy, when is the Good Fairy gonna come with her magic wand and change my penis into a vagina?' you're
like, okay, this is not typical, this is not something a normal child would do.'

I think it's perfectly possible to confuse young children about sex if you tell them that they can change sex, or choose their sex, or that some people are somehow not the sex their body would suggest - there is an age below which they will absolutely believe this is possible, and that a change of clothes/hair will change them into a boy/girl.

When it turns out to be not possible as they grow into better understanding and approach puberty, they will definitely be confused, and possibly angry, and definitely distressed.

And, given that our reproductive instincts are pretty accurate, children can definitely be confused if authority figures, such as teachers, tell them that another child is a boy, when their instinct is that this is a girl (or vice versa). They know one thing instincitvely, but adults are telling them otherwise - I am pretty sure that this will confuse them. Especially if they are taught that it is necessary to use pronouns that don't match the sex of this other child. That is sowing confusion, and I see it as gaslighting.

I don't think I expressed myself well here. Perhaps this puts it better.

I don't think any family (unless maybe the very poor families who have sons in the Ladyboy trade) encourages a child to transition simply to make money off them.

I do think that when a trans child has become a source of fame, money and/or status for their family, it will become very hard for anyone in that family including the child theirself to untangle their own self image from their self image as "the famous trans child" and their own decisions from their desire to please their parents.

I don't think any of this is necessarily done consciously on the part of patents or children.

i am not talking about anyone other than Miriam. I am not sufficiently informed about any others. And WRT Miriam i can only go on what is in the public sphere.

Miriam's brother literally said (as quoted in this thread) that the family were supported by Miriam's money.

And given the circs and background, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Miriam may have felt beholden to them or something and was sad not to be able to continue.

Nobody is making insinuations. We are hypothesising on something. Many people are more or less coerced into things like that.

Women can't talk about anything that might be slightly difficult or controversial can they?

It's a deliberate thing to avoid elephants entering the room.

Safeguarding? Na.
Exploitation of minors? Na.
Criminals exploiting the law? Na.
AGP? Na.
Heterogeneity? Na.
How pronouns aren't neutral? Na.
Violent TRAs? Na.
Transcel / Incel cross over? Na.
How can you tell between a voyeur and a 'woman' just accidentally slipping their penis out in the women's changing room? Na.
Fear, obligation and Guilt? Na
Gender neutrality defaulting to 'male' to the erasure of females? Na.

Be nice and be polite cos it's unkind to talk about these things. There's a good girl. Run along nothing to see here.

I think the correct response to this involves the word 'off'.

It is shocking, but not surprising, that women are, yet again, being told what we should believe, feel and talk about.

It rather informative but tedious.

Baseless? Jazz Jennings was put on puberty blockers at the age of 11: TV series and parents making money from running pro-trans organisations from that time. Jackie Green castrated at 16 and promoted as a teen trans model by his mother. They were too young to make informed decisions. They were both used by their parents in their business ventures. Thgis is a safeguarding issue. It's astonishing that Social Services weren't called in.

I don't think anyone suggested anyone was coerced into transitioning for money. However, in the case of Jazz and Jackie, their transition has been a source of income and/or status for their parents.

Ones self image is so influenced by ones family. I can imagine for a child in that position it is very hard to know when something is your own self image when it's a reflection of your family's image of you.

Once you celebrify your child's identity for the benefit of TV or your career which you are paid for then sorry we do get to ask questions.

This is called safeguarding and accountability in the public interest.

The privacy of these children was sold by their parents.

So no, it's fine to ask difficult and perhaps uncomfortable questions because they are important and relevant.

We should talk about the ethics of this too. And whether the children were really free to consent to that level of intrusion.

I do agree with this. The fact that vast sums of money were made off the back of Jazz and Jackie being transitioned as young children doesn't mean that the motive for transition was the money.

But once the money started rolling in it must've put an awful lot of pressure on those children to continue down the path of transition and surgery etc. If Jazz or Jackie had had a change of heart it would have destroyed a very lucrative business: in Jackie's case Mermaids and in Jazz's case a whole ongoing TV series. Honestly I feel so sorry for those children having had to live their whole lives in the spotlight. What must that do to you?

Can we please not move onto making baseless insinuations that Miriam, Jazz Jennings and Jackie Green were all coerced into transitioning in order to monetise them?

I hope that posters on this thread are above that level of sweaty conspiracy theorist nonsense.

I get it. Ranting is ok.

I'm just a few more years down the line of it all.

Learning that it's ok to do so and to tell people that kind of stuff is really important for ending the madness and for you in yourself.

The narcissism of trans is it's biggest downfall imho.

well, we were talking about Miriam, but is Jazz Jennings monetized? that is awful on top of all the awfulness of that whole thing.

Not sure who Jackie Green is. I wanted to stay on topic. But yes, it is all awful.

It hadn't occurred to me that Jazz was 'monetized' from a young age by his family. Absolutely abhorrent.