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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/04/2024 07:04

MrWarmth · 27/04/2024 06:39

True but this would be electoral suicide and they would never do this in the long term. Look at the example of Brexit. Kier Starmer was a remainer but he will never talk about rejoining the EU even if he wins the election because he knows Brexit is such a contentious issue where he could lose votes very quickly.

I think Labour are sincere, they wanted to be seen as inclusive but with evidence coming out about how damaging this is to our children, they have shifted their position.

The Tories on the other hand, that's a sinking ship that will say anything to get some votes at this point.

I don't think the EU is a good analogy. The main reason no politician will talk about rejoining the EU is because the decision isn't reversible. Imagine the prime minister holding another referendum on the EU, the electorate voting to rejoin, and then the EU saying no.

My fear with Labour and trans stuff is that they think they can ask for forgiveness, not permission. They'll say just enough to reassure women it's OK to vote for them, then they'll do what they want anyway thinking they'll be forgiven.

MrWarmth · 27/04/2024 06:39

Dineasair · 26/04/2024 10:54

If they aren’t sincere then the danger is that they will flip to pro trans again when they win the election.

True but this would be electoral suicide and they would never do this in the long term. Look at the example of Brexit. Kier Starmer was a remainer but he will never talk about rejoining the EU even if he wins the election because he knows Brexit is such a contentious issue where he could lose votes very quickly.

I think Labour are sincere, they wanted to be seen as inclusive but with evidence coming out about how damaging this is to our children, they have shifted their position.

The Tories on the other hand, that's a sinking ship that will say anything to get some votes at this point.

UtopiaPlanitia · 26/04/2024 15:27

RainWithSunnySpells · 25/04/2024 21:27

That was great. 🔥

I wondered if there are any other 'burn the witch' songs and I thought of 'Am I Evil.' So no witch burning in the title, however, the first line is 'My mother was a witch, she was burnt alive.'

Close enough?

A quick search on Apple Music produced a lot more results for 'burn the witch' than I would’ve expected. Very popular in metal and folk genres.

I like this one cos the lyrics are rather apt for us FWR vipers:

'Double bubble, toil and trouble
Spoke my mind and I got a muzzle
Uh-oh, uh-oh, I'm in trouble
Now I gotta watch a grown man go and
Burn, burn, burn, burn, burn the witch'

PVRIS, Tommy Genesis, Alice Longyu Gao - Burn The Witch (OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO)

► Listen/Stream "Burn The Witch": https://ffm.to/021624The official video for "Burn The Witch," the epic collaboration between PVRIS, Tommy Genesis, and Alic...

https://youtu.be/aye2CFuHr94?si=FTtL-Feho18AWmKU

Dineasair · 26/04/2024 12:19

RethinkingLife · 25/04/2024 10:36

https://archive.is/w1Ygw for those who need it.

Thanks for archiving

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 26/04/2024 11:47

She's shown herself to either be willing to put her political career over child safeguarding (enough people, including parents, Safe School Alliance and M Cates, told her what was happening) OR too thick to be a Minister.

Either way she should resign.

Soigneur · 26/04/2024 11:35

Swashbuckled · 25/04/2024 21:54

Not got to the end of the thread yet, so may be repeating; sorry, if so.

But I agree that studies need to be done with regard to how come so many people went along with these beliefs even though they didn’t believe them. Actually, at some level, they knew they didn’t believe them but they also allowed themselves to believe that they did.

This needs to be done so it doesn’t happen again. It feels so similar to the range of devotion in Putin’s followers. Well, any dictatorship. There are genuine devotees, and there are those who don’t believe but strategically conform in order to survive. It’s the middle ground that needs studying.

Obviously, some people aren’t very good at thinking and we know that. But so many intelligent and educated professionals; biological women too? A kind of mass grooming, but successful with people we would assume would be wise to being groomed.

We talk about it being Orwellian, which it is. But we should study the process to know how it worked.

It is, and will happen again. Repeatedly. It's just a fact of human nature that social shame and ostracism is an extremely powerful tool for silencing dissident opinion. For years I could not express my true opinions on this subject as I would be labelled 'transphobic' and ostracised in my professional life. I can't express my true opinion on the Israel-Gaza war as I will be labelled 'antisemitic'. I 'strategically conform' as you describe it. Such is life.

Dineasair · 26/04/2024 10:54

MrWarmth · 24/04/2024 23:00

Both Labour and the Tories know the majority of people in this country are not pro trans, so whatever they believe behind closed doors, they will become more gender critical as the general election comes closer.

I don't care if they're not sincere, our children need to be protected.

If they aren’t sincere then the danger is that they will flip to pro trans again when they win the election.

Mumteedum · 26/04/2024 08:56

Crankywiddershins · 24/04/2024 22:52

Can't do a share token but those chickens are coming home to roost.

And🙄 there's an election coming

Chersfrozenface · 26/04/2024 08:51

When going to church was a sign of respectability and indeed a necessity for many roles, how many people were committed Anglicans and how many went along with it because it was socially necessary?

How many people go to church in the US for similar reasons and because it's a safety net?

RainWithSunnySpells · 26/04/2024 08:30

Swashbuckled, I think you are talking about the concept of 'Ketman.'

'In 1953, he published The Captive Mind, a series of essays about the inner lives of intellectuals living under totalitarianism. In it, he took aim at the notion that tyranny crushes thought. Rather, he found that illiberal regimes could provoke their citizens to engage in the most elaborate mental acrobatics. In The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951), Arendt had written that the ideal subjects of totalitarianism are people ‘for whom the distinction between fact and fiction … and the distinction between true and false … no longer exist’. Miłosz found that the reverse was true. The subjects produced by totalitarianism were not mindless drones, but skillful dissemblers, as capable of self-justification and moral hair-splitting as the best-trained Jesuit. The name Miłosz gave to this new talent was ‘Ketman’. It is as difficult to define precisely as it is essential to understanding the nature of life under authoritarianism.'

https://aeon.co/ideas/ketman-and-doublethink-what-it-costs-to-comply-with-tyranny

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 06:13

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 25/04/2024 14:34

‘ Politicians who change their mind rather than doubling down should be celebrated not vilified. Admitting you’re wrong and changing is what we need in more people. We teach our kids that right?

let’s just celebrate and publicise this turn around’

I don’t think we have a choice, tbh. If we are going to dismiss as a hypocrite or coward everyone who claims to have seen the light ( however late) we are going to have very few allies, and we are going to need them. The TRA are not just sitting on their hands saying ‘ oh okay, fair cop, I’ll roll up my banner and put my stilettos in the charity bin’.

when Christianity became ‘legal’ in the fourth century CE there was considerable conflict between the Christians who had proclaimed their faith in the face of persecution , and those who had shut up, burnt the incense in front of the Emperor and practised their faith in private. ( Of course, the ranks of the former had been considerably thinned by martyrdom). Eventually, the reconverting bishops and laity were accepted, partly because there just weren’t enough of the steadfast to fill the new hierarchy. The concept of forgiveness for the prodigals did some heavy lifting.

(not many of the latter are recognised as Saints, though.)

I love little titbits of information like this. Thanks.

Human beings are the same everywhere and throughout history, aren't they?

binaryfinery · 26/04/2024 05:50

Yes. I’m glad she done a u-turn, yes we have to welcome it blah, blah, blah.

But it’s so bloody disturbing how many senior politicians are prepared to form opinions on serious policy issues that seriously affect all of us, without bothering to look into the issue at all. This wasn’t an unexpected question on an issue she knew nothing about. She formed a deliberate opinion on a very public and contentious issue. She can’t say ‘oh really? I just never thougbt about it much! Aren’t I a one? Giggle’ and have any integrity.

It’s not even like this is a difficult or complex area, despite what she’s claiming to try to avoid looking thick. It’s quite obvious that TW are not W. It’s quite easy to think through the problems in safeguarding and rights to say they are. And there were plenty of resources to help her.

What poor quality politicians we have now, what poor quality thinkers, what low integrity. What low grade political discourse we have now.

Shameful.

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 05:31

Sorry, I see the full article has been posted already.

Snowypeaks · 26/04/2024 05:28

This is what Julie Bindel thinks about Gillian Keegan's conversion:
She's a rat leaving a sinking ship and that she has a duty now to root GII out of her department and the education system.

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1783607434910539790

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1783607434910539790

Swashbuckled · 25/04/2024 21:54

Not got to the end of the thread yet, so may be repeating; sorry, if so.

But I agree that studies need to be done with regard to how come so many people went along with these beliefs even though they didn’t believe them. Actually, at some level, they knew they didn’t believe them but they also allowed themselves to believe that they did.

This needs to be done so it doesn’t happen again. It feels so similar to the range of devotion in Putin’s followers. Well, any dictatorship. There are genuine devotees, and there are those who don’t believe but strategically conform in order to survive. It’s the middle ground that needs studying.

Obviously, some people aren’t very good at thinking and we know that. But so many intelligent and educated professionals; biological women too? A kind of mass grooming, but successful with people we would assume would be wise to being groomed.

We talk about it being Orwellian, which it is. But we should study the process to know how it worked.

ladygindiva · 25/04/2024 21:29

Screamingabdabz · 24/04/2024 23:03

Yeah funny how people were willing to burn witches first then bother to do their homework… I know we should be pathetically grateful at these statements but I’m still bitter about the absolute refusal to listen to women in the first place.

Same here.

RainWithSunnySpells · 25/04/2024 21:27

UtopiaPlanitia · 25/04/2024 14:24

Rain, I see your excellent QOTSA vid and I add Radiohead 'Burn the Witch' 🤘Who doesn’t love a bit of 'Trumpton meets The Wicker Man' 😬

That was great. 🔥

I wondered if there are any other 'burn the witch' songs and I thought of 'Am I Evil.' So no witch burning in the title, however, the first line is 'My mother was a witch, she was burnt alive.'

Close enough?

Kendodd · 25/04/2024 20:55

I actually have a lot of respect for politicians admitting they were wrong and making Uturns. I wish they'd admit they were wrong about loads of other stuff and working to change track and fix other stuff.

WickedSerious · 25/04/2024 20:41

Men aren't women.

Why would anyone need an 'expert' to point that out to them?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 20:30

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 18:33

A few quotes.

“The rats leaving the sinking ship grow in number each day. But the victims – the children whose lives have been wrecked, the parents who have been forced to endure the rule of Stonewall – may never recover. And what of the women who were forced to defend their spaces? Some of them had their reputations tarnished or lost their jobs in defence of common sense, while Keegan comfortably toed the trans line. “

“Senior politicians in the two major parties, including Sir Keir “99.9 per cent of women don’t have a penis” Starmer, capitulated to transgender ideology out of a cowardly fear. They watched on as the likes of Rosie Duffield suffered for being brave and principled. “

“Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse. “

“She and others made a deliberate choice to indulge reckless ideology over the rights of women. “

That's a great blistering article from Julie. Many of the comments are so powerful.

LoobiJee · 25/04/2024 18:33

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2024 18:02

A few quotes.

“The rats leaving the sinking ship grow in number each day. But the victims – the children whose lives have been wrecked, the parents who have been forced to endure the rule of Stonewall – may never recover. And what of the women who were forced to defend their spaces? Some of them had their reputations tarnished or lost their jobs in defence of common sense, while Keegan comfortably toed the trans line. “

“Senior politicians in the two major parties, including Sir Keir “99.9 per cent of women don’t have a penis” Starmer, capitulated to transgender ideology out of a cowardly fear. They watched on as the likes of Rosie Duffield suffered for being brave and principled. “

“Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse. “

“She and others made a deliberate choice to indulge reckless ideology over the rights of women. “

Floisme · 25/04/2024 18:31

IcakethereforeIam · 25/04/2024 18:02

Thanks for the link. I quoted Maya Forstater's diplomatic, welcoming response upthread so, in the interests of balance, I also bloody love this from Julie:

'Saved in a secure folder, I have a number of emails and other forms of communication from politicians from both the Labour and the Conservative parties saying they completely agree with me on this issue but can’t speak out because it could lead to social exclusion. But we pay these people to represent our interests – there can be no excuse.'

I flip flop all over the place on this. On the one hand, I'm pragmatic and I know that, in order to win, we need influential people to change position. But on the other hand I really, really want to know the names of those politicians in Julie's inbox.

JanesLittleGirl · 25/04/2024 18:21

I can't forgive.
I can't forget.
I can't believe anything that you or any of the other reverse ferreters say ever again.

I'm not sorry if this isn't helpful.

miri1985 · 25/04/2024 16:19

theDudesmummy · 25/04/2024 13:27

@miri1985 I cannot believe that more than ridiculous (and scientifically completely illiterate) statement from the Lib Dems, especially the bit about "infantilises autistic people". Did they miss the fact that the report was about children not "people". Has anyone challenged them about it?

I know, I went on Layla "looking into souls" Moran's twitter to see had she commented on Cass and shes been tweeting about how we need to trust the science on climate change. I don't get how the Lib Dems can be talking out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to trusting science and experts on one issue but also on another issue telling us that feelings matter more than science and ignore experts