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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is "openly Jewish" a hate crime under the April Fools Scottish hate crime law?

388 replies

lechiffre55 · 19/04/2024 19:59

A Metropolitan police officer threatened to arrest a man for being "Openly Jewish" in London. Is this a hate crime in Scotland under the new hate crime laws?

I think it is. Could someone report it for me please I find it incredibly offensive and racist. I want to see what happens when Scottish Police try to get involved with racist actions taken by the Metropolitan Police.

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1781393179683483960

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
EdithStourton · 23/04/2024 20:16

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 17:25

This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent

Since you mention the USA, here's a video of what's happening there to young Jewish students, which is fucking chilling to say the least.

https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715

That is chilling: I can't think of a better word.

Xenia · 23/04/2024 20:11

Part of the problem with US and UK protests is that those protesting are very loud and they are taking over public space stopping others going about their business, rather than just meeting in halls for discussions or writing articles in newspapers. it is like men surrounding abortion clinics and shouting at women going in. Although I agree with free speech and rights to protest if the protests are so large and mean people feel unsafe on the street just because they look jewish or are a woman showing her legs or arms or because she drives a car of a kind an eco protestor does not like we then cross the line into what is not okay.

In a sense it is the same issue as women wanting to reclaim the streets - be safe to be out and about without men shouting at them.

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2024 20:06

turbonerd · 23/04/2024 19:18

What the hell is that crazy video?
That was properly scary, crazy leader and nutso chanters forming a human chain so that the «zionists» cannot disturb their privacy and community?
Insanity.

Jesus Christ. That should terrify anyone rational. What has happened to academia?

EdithStourton · 23/04/2024 19:50

fungipie · 23/04/2024 16:34

Look at the other side of the story. Accusation of antisemitism, and on social media, reporting posts so they get deleted- are used to shut down criticism and any debate. It works, as illustrated by the deletion of my above post.

This post is beyond naive, and extremely racist 'poor things' you say? Do you have any idea of the reality of the situation?

'You can't say 'why should Palestinians have to flee Gaza, their country?' on the one hand, and then wail that the poor things are 'trapped' with nowhere to go to escape Israel's miltary action on the other. Which is it? Are they trapped or do they want to stay put?' - this is just beyond the pale, and just disgusting.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent, and all criticism of Netanyahu and zionism, illegal settlements and genocide.

Your post was deleted because you were denying well-evidenced rapes.

Not because you were criticising Netanyahu.

Discussion is not being shut down when people say, actually, what is happening is not genocide. The discussion about how evil some people perceive Zionism to be is all over the Guardian (and probably the Independent, haven't looked) and university campuses.

'All dissent' is shut down my arse. It's out there marching through the streets of London at regular intervals.

callmej · 23/04/2024 19:47

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 17:25

This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent

Since you mention the USA, here's a video of what's happening there to young Jewish students, which is fucking chilling to say the least.

https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715

That's horrific. How can anyone possibly defend this?!

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 19:31

@turbonerd Pretty terrifying isn't it. Their "privacy" being...literally the uni grounds. Honestly thought it was some kind of amateur dramatics at first! And plans to do the same in other colleges apparently.

turbonerd · 23/04/2024 19:18

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 17:25

This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent

Since you mention the USA, here's a video of what's happening there to young Jewish students, which is fucking chilling to say the least.

https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715

What the hell is that crazy video?
That was properly scary, crazy leader and nutso chanters forming a human chain so that the «zionists» cannot disturb their privacy and community?
Insanity.

turbonerd · 23/04/2024 19:15

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 13:21

Yes exactly, when people bleat and hand wring about the Palestinians being trapped with nowhere to go, they conveniently fail to mention the land border with Egypt. Egypt doesn't want Hamas or Hamas sympathisers on their soil, because they are a massive security risk. So it's okay for Egypt to do whatever necessary to contain the problem in order to protect themselves, even if that decision is tough on innocent Palestinians, but it's completely beyond the pale for Israel to do the same thing. Confused

Let us repeat:
Egypt - which is NOT at war with Hamas - refuse to Open their border to Palestinian refugees.
No can do. Nope.

Also, Gaza was doing pretty well before 7. October. Look at the pics and videos.
Many palestinians in exile had deemed it finally safe to visit for longer periods of time, and were trapped after Hamas’ attack.
Beautiful beaches, well (foreign) run hospitals, well built housing, fairly thriving in many places by the looks of YouTube and TikTok.
Not brilliant since it is a theocracy, but materially fairly well.

The population of the Gaza strip is eyewateringly dense. Population denisty of several thousand per square km.
The relatively low cost in human lives does show that genocide is not what is happening. That is of small consolation to those who have lost loved ones and who are trapped in this hellscape now, but it is worth mentioning with regards to all the claims of genocidal activities by Israel.
It is war and people are awful, but it is not an ethnic slaughter.

A peaceful solution is needed, and as far as I can make out, the ball is in the muslim/arabic neighbour’s court.

fungipie · 23/04/2024 18:50

Did you read the article?

callmej · 23/04/2024 18:48

fungipie · 23/04/2024 16:34

Look at the other side of the story. Accusation of antisemitism, and on social media, reporting posts so they get deleted- are used to shut down criticism and any debate. It works, as illustrated by the deletion of my above post.

This post is beyond naive, and extremely racist 'poor things' you say? Do you have any idea of the reality of the situation?

'You can't say 'why should Palestinians have to flee Gaza, their country?' on the one hand, and then wail that the poor things are 'trapped' with nowhere to go to escape Israel's miltary action on the other. Which is it? Are they trapped or do they want to stay put?' - this is just beyond the pale, and just disgusting.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent, and all criticism of Netanyahu and zionism, illegal settlements and genocide.

You have shown absolutely no desire to debate. Your posts get deleted because you are peddling extremely offensive and demonstrably false conspiracy theories. Maybe before you start whimpering about how hard done by you are, actually respond to some of the many invitations to 'debate' you have already been offered. I myself have asked for proof twice of claims you have made and continue to make. I have also pointed out that the 'source' you are trying to offer is very famously hamas propaganda. Yet you continue to offer it like it has some sort of credibility. You are either extremely dim and have been taken in by false information because it sounds like something you want to believe in, and/or you are a revolting little racist trying to spread upset and misinformation on a thread set up to discuss the disgusting antisemitism on display at these demonstrations and the fact that in 2024 London a Jew is told he has to avoid certain areas or face arrest. Feel free to keep spreading your bullshit whilst ignoring any comments you don't like or can't answer, personally I have no further interest in engaging with you. PS Please look up the word 'genocide'; what's happening in palestine is not one and isn't going to become one just because you keep pretending it is.

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 17:25

fungipie · 23/04/2024 16:39

Those people trying to expose this phony war, and the illegal settlements all over Palestine and the treatment of the people of Gaza and the West Bank, are being systematically shut up. This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/palestine-us-activism-firings-speech

This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent

Since you mention the USA, here's a video of what's happening there to young Jewish students, which is fucking chilling to say the least.

https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715

https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715

fungipie · 23/04/2024 16:39

Those people trying to expose this phony war, and the illegal settlements all over Palestine and the treatment of the people of Gaza and the West Bank, are being systematically shut up. This much more so in the USA, but in the UK too. Shouts ot antisemitism, racism, extremism- are being systematically used to derail, and shut down.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/palestine-us-activism-firings-speech

‘The Palestine exception’: why pro-Palestinian voices are suppressed in the US

Americans are being fired and facing threats for speaking out. Lawyers fear it will get worse – but they are ready to defend against the onslaught

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/palestine-us-activism-firings-speech

fungipie · 23/04/2024 16:34

Look at the other side of the story. Accusation of antisemitism, and on social media, reporting posts so they get deleted- are used to shut down criticism and any debate. It works, as illustrated by the deletion of my above post.

This post is beyond naive, and extremely racist 'poor things' you say? Do you have any idea of the reality of the situation?

'You can't say 'why should Palestinians have to flee Gaza, their country?' on the one hand, and then wail that the poor things are 'trapped' with nowhere to go to escape Israel's miltary action on the other. Which is it? Are they trapped or do they want to stay put?' - this is just beyond the pale, and just disgusting.

Perhaps look at the other side, and how accusations of antisemitism are systematically, and very cleverly, used to shut down all dissent, and all criticism of Netanyahu and zionism, illegal settlements and genocide.

LadyGooGaa · 23/04/2024 15:56

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 14:27

I remember someone asking that question once before, about why Gazan refugees could not get out via Egypt. The response from one person was something along the lines of 'Oh yeah, do you really think the Palestinians would fall for that? They'd flee to safety and the Israelis would grab their land and not allow them back in. They aren't going to fall for that trick.'

Now I'll be honest, I have zero idea whether that would be a likely scenario or tactic or not, on the part of Israel. But I found it interesting that the fact that Egypt refuses to take any Gazan refugees was totally ignored, the real reasons for it not even engaged with, and the blame for them being trapped in Gaza was turned squarely back onto Israel.

You know, looking at social media, listening to the news, reading posts, replies etc it’s hard to understand why this conflict has become such a cesspit of hatred and vitriol towards a race/religion/people (whatever word is preferred) and why it’s an obsession with celebrities and influencers. I mean, it’s not like there aren’t other conflicts, other wars, other situations in our world deserving of attention or protests etc. Russia invading Ukraine is one example.
The one reason that this specific conflict creates such an extreme and disproportionate reaction is because it involves Jews.
Jews are so often targeted for hate, mainly I think because as a tiny minority they seem to dominate in so many areas, which I suppose creates envy or conspiracy theories. Jews don’t tend to threaten or become violent so they are easy to vilify - we are outnumbered by so many.
One thing that’s clear to me now, is that antisemitism never went away, and will always be an inherent aspect of our lives as diaspora Jews, and Israel will always be held accountable for existing at all. I hope in time, in a few years when focus has moved on to another issue, that we remember that staying silent or fearful isn’t an option. I don’t agree with much of how Israel handles our “enemies” but I do admire how they stand up against them and fight for survival rather than walking meekly into gas chambers.

thatsthewayitis · 23/04/2024 15:43

Agreed Bravo @lechiffre55

Another mordant amusement is the sheer irony of the anti-white , anti-colonialist Left ignoring that Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Lebanon all Middle Eastern countries hate Hamas and want Israel to finish them off.
But their views and wishes are nothing compared to enlightened woke Westerners. It's Kiplingesqe; "the white man's burden" all over again.

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 15:24

@lechiffre55

Bravo. Fantastically well summed up.

lechiffre55 · 23/04/2024 15:05

@HeadDeskHeadDesk
As you've said there's always this denial and deflection where the inconvenient truth gets swept under the carpet. Little details get used as excuses to deny entire things. Similar to what you were saying it goes something like this ( and I'm completly making these numbers up to illustrate a point not claiming these numbers are the actual numbers )

A news source shows heavily pixellated pictures and says these are two decapitated babies.
Another source claims a number of babies were decapitated, perhaps as many as half a dozen.
A denier will then do this:
There were only two heavily blurred pictures which the news source said were decapitated babies but how do we know? We can't see. So the IDF makes the originals available, and now the claim is well you can't trust the IDF, those are fake decapitated babies! There are no decapitated babies.
Another denier will say well news source two said there would be up to half a dozen, but only two pictures were presented! Where's the rest?? The whole story is fake!

What happens is deniers worry at the edges of the story, trying to use any differences in small details in an attempt to invalidate the whole. That the number of decapitated babies might differ depending on who's reporting and what they themselves witnessed is used as an excuse to try and invadidate that any babies were decapitated by haggling over the numbers.
I assume, perhaps wrongly, that any normal human being would be utterly against even the concept of decapitating babies, no mater what the exact number, and not demand ever more impossible evidence "Well thousands of miles away over here in the UK I didn't see any decapitated babies, so there were none. Bring me the bodies to prove it!". Especially where their friends are waving flags and celebrating outside, and bigging up the number of babies decapitated.

One last point. What @HeadDeskHeadDesk and I desribe here I've seen before in my lifetime. I remember when I was around teenage years people trying to dispute the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Intracate stories with plans, and model mock ups of the concentratiion camps, and a long lecture trying to convince me that it wasn't possible to burn six million jews in that time because the ovens couldn't fit enough bodies through at maximum capacity. Doing all sorts of maths, and making all sorts of justifications why the six million number was too big.
When as a human being, you look at the Holocaust, and the message you take from the Holocaust is that you should do the mass gassing people in shower rooms maths, and the burning people's bodies in ovens maths, and start building little models, then you may have a body and a brain, be able to breathe, move, eat, and sleep, but you are not a human being. The answer to any deliberate massacre is not to try and disprove it happened but to stop it happening again. Trying to disprove killings like this does not work, but it does mark you out as an utterly aweful human being.

OP posts:
HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 14:59

Why should Palestinians have to flee Palestine, Gaza, their country?

Why should anybody flee their country when it's at war? It's what refugees do. Nobody makes them leave. They don't always want to leave. But given the choice, many people do opt to leave, even if only temporarily.

You can't say 'why should Palestinians have to flee Gaza, their country?' on the one hand, and then wail that the poor things are 'trapped' with nowhere to go to escape Israel's miltary action on the other. Which is it? Are they trapped or do they want to stay put?

LarkLane · 23/04/2024 14:58

A Youtube link is hardly FACT.
Conspiracy theory land.

callmej · 23/04/2024 14:45

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 14:27

I remember someone asking that question once before, about why Gazan refugees could not get out via Egypt. The response from one person was something along the lines of 'Oh yeah, do you really think the Palestinians would fall for that? They'd flee to safety and the Israelis would grab their land and not allow them back in. They aren't going to fall for that trick.'

Now I'll be honest, I have zero idea whether that would be a likely scenario or tactic or not, on the part of Israel. But I found it interesting that the fact that Egypt refuses to take any Gazan refugees was totally ignored, the real reasons for it not even engaged with, and the blame for them being trapped in Gaza was turned squarely back onto Israel.

I've seen it used many times as an excuse for Oct 7 - that yeah ok, hamas were a bit naughty but one can hardly blame them as they've been imprisoned by Israel for years. But by that logic, why haven't hamas attacked Egypt? Why haven't they been bombarding Egypt with endless missile strikes and suicide bombers for decades? Why choose invade Israel and not Egypt, why only rape, murder and kidnap Israelis and not Egyptians? You'd think the palestinians would actually be more angry at Egypt than Israel, not only have they - a fellow arab muslim state - imprisoned them, but they also haven't provided them with anything like the amount of aid that Israel have over the years. Can't understand why the Jews Israel seems to get all the blame 🤔

Hélène79 · 23/04/2024 14:45

'Fact Check, Al Jazeera' is an oxymoron if ever I saw one.

@fungipie Can you please stop derailing what was originally a very cordial thread. There's a dedicated forum with around 500 threads where I can assure you, you'll find plenty validation for your posts.

fungipie · 23/04/2024 14:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 14:27

callmej · 23/04/2024 14:04

Yeah, I think I've asked people this before; I don't understand how Israel is blockading Palestine and keeping the population in an 'open prison' - but Egypt's not. Especially as it's been predominantly Israel who has provided Palestine with water, electricity etc. I'm not actually sure if Egypt's ever provided any sort of aid?

I remember someone asking that question once before, about why Gazan refugees could not get out via Egypt. The response from one person was something along the lines of 'Oh yeah, do you really think the Palestinians would fall for that? They'd flee to safety and the Israelis would grab their land and not allow them back in. They aren't going to fall for that trick.'

Now I'll be honest, I have zero idea whether that would be a likely scenario or tactic or not, on the part of Israel. But I found it interesting that the fact that Egypt refuses to take any Gazan refugees was totally ignored, the real reasons for it not even engaged with, and the blame for them being trapped in Gaza was turned squarely back onto Israel.

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 23/04/2024 14:17

the stories that came out in the days following the attack were false....these include claims of atrocities such as the mass killing and beheading of babies as well as allegations of widespread and systematic rape

I think what people try to do here, when defending or minimising the actions of Hamas on 7/10 is to slyly insert words like 'mass' and 'widespread' and 'systematic' into the narrative so that certain atrocities are easier to deny, based on provability of scale.

So let's say there is cold hard evidence of four murdered babies and six raped and mutilated women. It might be argued that that doesn't really constitute anything 'mass' or 'widespread' or 'systematic' in the context of the 4000 or so Jews who were caught up in 7/10 one way or another. The fact that there might be others for which evidence has not been independently verified, is beside the point. For the Hamas apologists, it's a case of 'photos or it didn't happen.'

It's cognitive dissonance at its absolute worst. So let's say there was hard evidence that two babies were beheaded on 7/10 and four women were raped and then sexually mutilated. The people who'd rather pretend that didn't happen will say something like 'it's Israeli lies and propaganda that there was a mass beheading of babies or a widespread rape and mutilation of women.' As if the two babies proven to have been beheaded and the four women proven to have been raped then shot or stabbed in the vagina are not worth mentioning because it's not evidence of anything 'mass' or 'widespread.' It's quite disgusting really.