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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 17:50

Chersfrozenface · 21/04/2024 16:24

I don't think there is any issue with wanting to support gay people and this take on what Starmer said at the Diva event is homophobic imo.

There is no mention of the word "gay", the only term used is LGBT+ and it is obvious that the T+ is the only cohort that matters

I wouldn't say that's obvious at all Cher. Especially not to LGB people fearing a backlash.

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 17:50

I haven't been posting on here as long as some, so I had no idea about all that - but it explains a lot.

Imnobody4 · 21/04/2024 17:33

Modus operandi of an Labour supporting intersectional feminist.

  1. Remove dissent. Too many radical feminists on thriving feminist board. Contact Authority to split boards.

Result-the radical board thrives attracting a wide range of political views together with varied experiences. The other board withers.

  1. Investigate what's happening on the board which was supposed to die quietly in the dark, after all they're only a bigoted minority. Oh no! There having discussions about Labour and saying things I don't agree with. Contact Authority to complain about people having a different view of Labour's policies. Authority suggest that's life get on with it.
  1. Begins to derail threads. Starts posting long posts accusing posters of being Fascist adjacent for agreeing with any idea, thought or comment not made by an intersectional feminist or approved Labour MP. At the same time accuses posters of
misrepresenting Keir Starmer who has been transformed into our glorious leader who is infinitely wise and truthful.

Posters say pull the other one.

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:23

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:12

Too late to add

And they are closely tied to TRA lobbyists who apply pressure

So do you think there’s no going back for Labour? If they’re not prepared to say they made a mistake, and are not prepared to piss off wealthy donors and influential people?

Floisme · 21/04/2024 17:18

I hadn't noticed at first but Jean Hatchet's article (link in the op) includes a further link to one by Rosie Duffield which I thoroughly recommend if anyone missed it like I did.

She takes no prisoners and says some illuminating things about Starmer's leadership style. One or two tasters:
'When Keir became leader, he promised we would always be able to approach him. But nothing could be further from the truth. The leader of the Labour Party has almost no personal contact with his backbenchers. The last message I sent to Keir, practically begging for support, was ignored.
Keir is bundled in and out of meetings before you even have a chance to say: 'Have you heard about this major medical scandal at the Tavistock clinic?'

And: 'Of course, it's not only male colleagues who have been hostile. There's a group of female MPs, some of whom have behaved appallingly.
Some have 'whispered' loudly about 'f terfs' as I walk past. Then, as our official policy appears to change, I'll see them on television saying: 'It's terribly concerning that women haven't been able to talk about this issue.' Their hypocrisy is monumental.'

And: 'At the heart of this attitude is, I believe, a deep-seated misogyny within the party.'

Yes it's the Daily Mail (Hmm why not The Guardian, some might wonder) but I recommend getting past any squeamishness to anyone who's new to the topic and trying to understand why some of us are so pissed off.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:12

Too late to add

And they are closely tied to TRA lobbyists who apply pressure

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 17:04

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:01

Labour are indeed ‘desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights’?

My question now this is all crystal clear - is Why?

Because in 2004 they created incredibly bad legislation which is harming women and children now and they don’t want people to talk about the reality of that.

Once people speak plainly and clearly the whole stack of lies and harm is exposed.

Lion400 · 21/04/2024 17:01

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 16:54

Joan Smith nailed it in the article:
"Leading figures in the Labour Party can’t just expect us to forgive and forget. They denied biology, failed to condemn the misogyny of trans activists and looked the other way when we were abused. Trust has to be rebuilt and we are nowhere near that yet."

It's evident they still don't get it. Too many desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights.

Labour are indeed ‘desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights’?

My question now this is all crystal clear - is Why?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 16:54

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2024 16:29

You trust Starmer and you believe in him Adam, I don't. I think he is weak, a coward and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Why would I vote for someone, or the Party of which he is Leader, for whom that is my opinion?

Starmer has flip flopped over the Self-Id issue and that only came about due to the Isla Bryson debacle before then he was fully on board. He cannot explicitly state how or even which woman only spaces he will protect for biological women only. It is all very well saying how gay friendly Labour are but that all rather falls apart when men are included in the definition of lesbian.

Joan Smith nailed it in the article:
"Leading figures in the Labour Party can’t just expect us to forgive and forget. They denied biology, failed to condemn the misogyny of trans activists and looked the other way when we were abused. Trust has to be rebuilt and we are nowhere near that yet."

It's evident they still don't get it. Too many desperately trying to avoid the issue by smearing women as transphobes, right wing and being in hate groups rather than owning up to their failure to safeguard children and women's rights.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:48

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 16:38

Shaunboy's always got an appropriate sketch -

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

Ooh, I wonder if this will be taken as evidence of my right wingedness.

Ha I didn’t know that guy, made me laugh

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 16:38

Shaunboy's always got an appropriate sketch -

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

Ooh, I wonder if this will be taken as evidence of my right wingedness.

https://x.com/shiny02/status/1781288977565135150

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2024 16:29

You trust Starmer and you believe in him Adam, I don't. I think he is weak, a coward and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. Why would I vote for someone, or the Party of which he is Leader, for whom that is my opinion?

Starmer has flip flopped over the Self-Id issue and that only came about due to the Isla Bryson debacle before then he was fully on board. He cannot explicitly state how or even which woman only spaces he will protect for biological women only. It is all very well saying how gay friendly Labour are but that all rather falls apart when men are included in the definition of lesbian.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:25

I’m with @MrsOvertonsWindow some great posters on here.

Women who speak up and share insights. I reckon we’re getting somewhere and that ruffles people

The relentless mischaracterisation is tedious but it all seems to be from one poster.

Chersfrozenface · 21/04/2024 16:24

I don't think there is any issue with wanting to support gay people and this take on what Starmer said at the Diva event is homophobic imo.

There is no mention of the word "gay", the only term used is LGBT+ and it is obvious that the T+ is the only cohort that matters

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:15

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 15:21

Endless posts accusing women on here of being "right wing, fascist allied, pearl clutchers, conspiracy theorists and bigots" display a deep seated dislike of women. Plus a seething frustration when women refuse to comply with demands that we see certain things from a particular narrow perspective.

I love the wit, wisdom, intelligence and political insight of so many women on here - including those with different perspectives.
Adrienne Rich said "The connections between and among women are the most feared, the most problematic, and the most potentially transforming force on the planet".
❤

I have not called anyone a bigot. Got called a bigot myself repeatedly by others on a different thread though.

I also haven't called anyone on this board a fascist. I've pointed out the fascist tactics used by various politicians some posters are very supportive of.

Conspiracy theorists - I can't help it if people post well known conspiracy theories as "fact". Such as the "children identifying as cats" thing.

"Deep-seated dislike of women" my arse. I can challenge womens opinions without disliking them. Play the ball, not the player and all that.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:11

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 15:11

This is how I try and get other people to see my perspective.

By insulting them, belittling them and otherwise ignoring everything they've said repeatedly.

Because I'm right and totally self aware. So There!

😂🙄

Edited

Where's the insult?
You have actually insulted me, yet you want to post snark about me. Total hypocrisy.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:09

Justnot · 21/04/2024 14:34

So FWR is right-wing and we’ve all got half a brain……….its worrying that Adam has apparently spent so much time on this board but thinks so little of it.

Most of us find it enlightening, uplifting, and supportive - we don’t agree on everything some of us are left-wing some of us not and that’s fine.

Labour have been in the background cheerleading this shit for years, in schools and institutions etc, so sue us for not being confident of their about turn

on another note - are there not some things we need to be grateful to the tories for (though it might pain me to say it)? Commissioning the Cass report? Are we allowed to give credit where it’s due or is that not tribal enough?

I think that shows how bad the Conservatives are.

Damn right they needed to commission a review after the Keira Bell/Mrs A case. They would have been negligent not to. In fact I think they were negligent in ignoring women and letting the Tavistock situation manifest in the first place. I am not going to give the government "credit" for doing their job. That's the very least we should expect.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:05

Chersfrozenface · 21/04/2024 14:33

I should draw your attention to a relevant post on MN from January this year.

"Exclusive in Diva, following a reception at a LGBT+ Labour event in Parliament on 29 Jan:

https://diva-magazine.com/2024/01/29/exclusive-keir-starmer-lgbtqia-rights/

"“We’ll strengthen the law, so every category of hate crime is treated as an aggravated offence,” Starmer said. “We’ll cut NHS waiting lists for LGBT+ people waiting for urgent physical and mental health care. We’ll modernise the Gender Recognition Act. We’ll implement a full, trans-inclusive, ban on all forms of conversion therapy. We fully support the view that conversion therapy is psychologically damaging abuse.”

“We are committed to a decade of national renewal and will work with all the organisations in this room tonight so every child can feel proud and confident in who they are, to stand up for LGBT+ rights at home and abroad and to get Britain’s future back.”

The mention of children is unclear but must have a background to the full speech? LGBT Labour hasn't tweeted about it but others have. Rayner and Dodds also in attendance.

https://x.com/djrm94/status/1752057964767101041?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

https://x.com/stevenatkins/status/1752256944843162016?s=46&t=WHoOZZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

x.com/anuox/status/1752094930074325420?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

I don't think there is any issue with wanting to support gay people and this take on what Starmer said at the Diva event is homophobic imo.

Kemi Badenoch is also working on laws to ban conversion therapy, so yet again, there is a gnats fact between labour and Tories
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/conversion-therapy-ban-kemi-badenoch-says-work-ongoing-on-new-laws/

Conversion therapy ban: Kemi Badenoch says work ongoing on new laws and she's NOT blocking it

Ministers are still working up new laws to ban conversion therapy, the Business Secretary has told LBC.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/conversion-therapy-ban-kemi-badenoch-says-work-ongoing-on-new-laws

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 16:04

DialSquare · 21/04/2024 15:28

Considering I've only ever voted for Labour, I don't appear to be doing this right wing thing very well.

Yup, we do womaning wrong, feministing wrong, thinking wrong and are politically wrong (allegedly). Expect we'll next be told, like our poor children, that our bodies are wrong.

Thankfully there are too many of us to be silenced.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 15:40

Dyed in the wool wouldnt be the words I'd use.

DialSquare · 21/04/2024 15:38

It would appear that I’m even less dyed in the wool than Adam!

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 15:33

DialSquare · 21/04/2024 15:28

Considering I've only ever voted for Labour, I don't appear to be doing this right wing thing very well.

Part timer.

Why aren't you out beating all the undecided with a large stick for being right wingers?

You aren't a one true believer.

DialSquare · 21/04/2024 15:28

Considering I've only ever voted for Labour, I don't appear to be doing this right wing thing very well.

Justnot · 21/04/2024 15:26

Adam is wilfully misrepresenting this board and its posters - I am off now cos it’s all been said, but Adam is superficial and we - yes we we we - are fucking profound (I am riding peoples coat tails with the we a little bit there…)

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 15:26

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/04/2024 15:21

Endless posts accusing women on here of being "right wing, fascist allied, pearl clutchers, conspiracy theorists and bigots" display a deep seated dislike of women. Plus a seething frustration when women refuse to comply with demands that we see certain things from a particular narrow perspective.

I love the wit, wisdom, intelligence and political insight of so many women on here - including those with different perspectives.
Adrienne Rich said "The connections between and among women are the most feared, the most problematic, and the most potentially transforming force on the planet".
❤

🙌