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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

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Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:30

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn - duplicate post

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:29

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:14

Shouldn't have to be said, of course, but the Brighton rape crisis centre linked to upthread: Jeez, words fail me. Is it not the most basic and obvious thing in the world that a rape crisis centre, of all places, should be staffed by women?

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

Help Sarah’s Legal Challenge to Secure Female Only Rape Crisis Therapy

I’m suing Brighton’s Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network for discrimination because it refused to provide a women-only peer support group. I am a survivor of sexual abuse.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:14

Shouldn't have to be said, of course, but the Brighton rape crisis centre linked to upthread: Jeez, words fail me. Is it not the most basic and obvious thing in the world that a rape crisis centre, of all places, should be staffed by women?

borntobequiet · 22/04/2024 12:08

Good to see the NSPCC in the spotlight.

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 12:06

Whatthechicken · 21/04/2024 06:52

I am so fed up of being lectured about this issue being a ‘single issue’ and instead I should be thinking about the ‘greater good’. This is not a single issue. This is about women’s fundamental human rights. If we are not recognised as a sex class within law then we are ultimately second class citizens - and for me that underpins everything else.

If they don’t care about women being recognised within legislation as a sex class, why would they care about women’s health, education, disabled women, women of colour, working class women etc.

Women always come as a second thought…’once we’ve sorted out this and that - then we’ll look after women and their rights’.

Not this time for me. For me, once our legitimacy and rights are protected in law, I will fight/protest and campaign for everything else. If our rights as a sex class are brushed away, we won’t be getting them back anytime soon and we will be in a much weaker position to have any influence or say over anything else.

Yes. Andrea Dworkin wrote very well about this in her essay about her time in socialist circles. Always being told to hut up about feminism and ignore the sexism and misogyny of her fellow travellers for the 'greater good'. Once the glorious revolution had happened, then the socialists might get round to sorting out the rights of the silly little women. Yeah right.

Put it this way. If Labour's stance was that they couldn't define Black people, that Black was a feeling and the whitest ofwhitest whitey could identify as a black person based on the fact that they liked Reggae and once went to Carnival. Would anyone expect Black people to vote for a party like that? No matter how in sync they were with that party's other policies?

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:02

If only some journo would ask Dodds what the distinction is between exemptions and exceptions, eh? Labour give every reason to be suspicious with their jesuitical mutterings. They talk about updating the GRA, but as far as I know, are pretty careful not to say exactly how. The only feasible change you could make to the Act would be to make getting a GRC a bit easier, surely? Is there anything else?

WickedSerious · 22/04/2024 11:57

Datun · 22/04/2024 09:36

Indeed. I would like to see it more generally understood that the likes of Marks & Spencer, for instance, are completely within their legal right to exclude men who claim they are women, from the women's changing room.

If they won't do it, headlines could say so, so that women everywhere can vote with their feet, and force them into it.

it doesn't have to be Marks & Spencer. It doesn't have to be anywhere specific.

Just a journalist publicising it.

Or a politician.

They could make an announcement along the lines of 'We know that legally we're allowed to exclude men from women's spaces but we really don't want to.Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

Spell it out for us and then everyone knows where they stand.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 11:50

I believe the EA act also talks about both single sex 'exemptions' and 'exceptions'. I can't remember precisely the differences between them but I think the former is decided on a case case by case basis while the latter is fixed and permanent? I remember Michael Foran (at least I think it was him) explaining and there was a thread about it on here.

Anyway Anneliese Dodds has talked about retaining the former but has not, as far as I'm aware, mentioned the latter:
'Labour wants to modernise the Gender Recognition Act while making sure that that does not override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act.' (Hansard 6/12/23) Likewise in a Guardian article (July 23).

I accept that she might be just have been trying to simplify things so as not to bamboozle us non lawyers. But the extract I quoted is from a parliamentary speech where they don't normally shy away from technical language. Plus she's normally very careful with her wording.

There was a time when I'd have trusted them and let it go but that time is well and truly up.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-12-06/debates/E7306EC2-EFCB-4331-BD82-F01FDF67CCBF/GenderRecognition

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 11:47

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:11

They’re still poor laws looking at the outcomes we see today

Just in terms of harm to women and children and that it enables men to challenge

Exactly

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:28

M&S would be challenged in the courts if they tried. What the outcome would be would be a test case. But as another poster on here says no one tries to exclude men currently - bar the case I linked below.

It’s the issue with a law that is open to interpretation and the outcome we have due to another law the GRA which enables the legal challenge

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:24

Adding to that ‐ the fact is that they can't use the single sex exception and include men as women.

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:15

I think the problem lies in the fact that the rights are with organisations not women. I don't have a right to a single sex changing room, it's M+S who have the right to provide them IF they choose.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:11

They’re still poor laws looking at the outcomes we see today

Just in terms of harm to women and children and that it enables men to challenge

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 11:02

I'm not voting for a party that can't define what I am. Simples.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 10:59

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:38

IANAL, but this is what I understand to be the case:

The EA doesn't give men who claim to be women (MCW) more rights than women. If anything it severely limits the extent to which MCW have to be treated as women. It's been misstated and misinterpreted by Stonewall et al, as has the GRA, and they have spread that misinformation through their training courses and lobbying. And until recently, the EHRC wasn't doing its job in correcting misinformation and explaining the EA properly.

Lady Haldane's judgement was surprising, but it has already been partially overturned in the Inner House and there is a good chance of the Supreme Court ruling going in favour of FWS. If it does, we will be back to the normal meaning of sex and MCW not counting as women on representation boards.

The EA makes clear that MCW are not women by defining a woman as a human female of any age. That limits the category of "woman" to women and girls. The Sex Discrimination Act had a wider definition of "woman" which could include MCW.

The SSEs also draw a distinction between MCW and women by allowing providers to exclude even MCW with a GRC from anywhere it matters. There is a bar to reach but in practice almost any circumstances in which you can exclude other men, you can exclude MCW. It's TRA training and influencing that makes people think that it's virtually impossible to do so lawfully.

Similarly, GRCs don't impose any duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state. Bad training courses, unchecked by the EHRC, have spread the myth that they do.

The premise of the EA is that no-one with a PC can be excluded from anywhere or from any opportunities except in certain circumstances - the exceptios. These include the SSEs. The way the Act is drafted, ie providers may exclude men rather than must exclude, has been exploited by TRAs to emphasise that the SSEs in the EA don't confer a right to single sex spaces, which is true. But the EA does confer a right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of sex - and not providing single sex services or spaces or removing them usually is unfairly discriminatory. It's just that not enough women have taken their gym or whatever to court, unsurprisingly given the cost.

It's bad faith actors and generalised misogyny that have caused the problems, not the EA itself.

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” is relevant?

In which case it sounds like the courts would be asked to decide on any challenge

Has there been a case yet? I don’t think there has from women, but if men were excluded they may do so

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 10:57

TempestTost · 22/04/2024 10:41

It's not very common for a new party in government to just go right ahead and repeal something done or created by the last government, even if they opposed it directly. Which is probably a good thing or you'd have legislation flip flopping all over the place and it wouldn't be good for anyone.

I don't think many people appreciated the extent of the problems the GRA would cause, least of all Labour. The few people who did anticipate it seemed to mainly be Tories in the HoL. But most didn't.

I don't think so either. Because who could have predicted smart phones, Tumblr and social contagion in 2004?

Looking at my children, I'm hopeful we are coming out of the other side. They all seem to be sex realists so hopefully numbers of children transitioning will decline.

I'd still like to see the GRA amended so that people with a GRC have to declare it in specific circumstances, with it being protected like any other sensitive personal data.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 10:53

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 05:38

IANAL, but this is what I understand to be the case:

The EA doesn't give men who claim to be women (MCW) more rights than women. If anything it severely limits the extent to which MCW have to be treated as women. It's been misstated and misinterpreted by Stonewall et al, as has the GRA, and they have spread that misinformation through their training courses and lobbying. And until recently, the EHRC wasn't doing its job in correcting misinformation and explaining the EA properly.

Lady Haldane's judgement was surprising, but it has already been partially overturned in the Inner House and there is a good chance of the Supreme Court ruling going in favour of FWS. If it does, we will be back to the normal meaning of sex and MCW not counting as women on representation boards.

The EA makes clear that MCW are not women by defining a woman as a human female of any age. That limits the category of "woman" to women and girls. The Sex Discrimination Act had a wider definition of "woman" which could include MCW.

The SSEs also draw a distinction between MCW and women by allowing providers to exclude even MCW with a GRC from anywhere it matters. There is a bar to reach but in practice almost any circumstances in which you can exclude other men, you can exclude MCW. It's TRA training and influencing that makes people think that it's virtually impossible to do so lawfully.

Similarly, GRCs don't impose any duty on individuals or any body who is not an arm of the state. Bad training courses, unchecked by the EHRC, have spread the myth that they do.

The premise of the EA is that no-one with a PC can be excluded from anywhere or from any opportunities except in certain circumstances - the exceptios. These include the SSEs. The way the Act is drafted, ie providers may exclude men rather than must exclude, has been exploited by TRAs to emphasise that the SSEs in the EA don't confer a right to single sex spaces, which is true. But the EA does confer a right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of sex - and not providing single sex services or spaces or removing them usually is unfairly discriminatory. It's just that not enough women have taken their gym or whatever to court, unsurprisingly given the cost.

It's bad faith actors and generalised misogyny that have caused the problems, not the EA itself.

That's my understanding too which is partly why I support Labour's position go better educate on using the EA properly rather than any rewriting of the EA. I am genuinely worried about the very capitalist sector of the Conservatives using a "review" of the EA to further strip protections. They have already shown they couldn't care less about disabled people and don't buy the concept of racial discrimination.

TempestTost · 22/04/2024 10:41

It's not very common for a new party in government to just go right ahead and repeal something done or created by the last government, even if they opposed it directly. Which is probably a good thing or you'd have legislation flip flopping all over the place and it wouldn't be good for anyone.

I don't think many people appreciated the extent of the problems the GRA would cause, least of all Labour. The few people who did anticipate it seemed to mainly be Tories in the HoL. But most didn't.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 09:42

Actually I disagree about this thread going down the drain. Not only has it been immensely satisfying to vent, I think it's been a text book demonstration of what to expect in Labour circles if you depart from the view that, 'A-real-Labour-government-will-make-life-better-for-everyone-including-women-so-why-are-you-complaining-are-you-sure-you're-not-a-Tory?-hey-everyone-she's-a-Tory'.

Datun · 22/04/2024 09:36

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 08:40

So the legislation actually covers everything properly, it's just spineless organisations and govt bodies refusing to implement the legislation that is the problem?

Like politicians, etc.

So unless women withdraw their support from companies and organisations that don't follow the legislation, they've no reason go change and do what they're supposed to

Hence our saying we're politically homeless. With a reducing number of facilities available yo me, unless I'm prepared to prop up an illegal system. I certainly can't afford to take every shop and gym to court, can I???

I've nowhere to work out unless I'm prepared to share changing facilities with men (i am not) or pay the vast expense of a Bannatyne membership (I cannot afford it), nor can I swim (shared changing) in our council pool. I can't send my girls to guides, as there are boys in the troop. I can't even guarantee that the bra fitting in m&s is female only.

Even though legislation says otherwise, all these places just cannot bring themselves to treat me like a full human being.

So I don't support them. Of course, that means I myself go without, but then who cares about that? I'm just a woman.

Indeed. I would like to see it more generally understood that the likes of Marks & Spencer, for instance, are completely within their legal right to exclude men who claim they are women, from the women's changing room.

If they won't do it, headlines could say so, so that women everywhere can vote with their feet, and force them into it.

it doesn't have to be Marks & Spencer. It doesn't have to be anywhere specific.

Just a journalist publicising it.

Or a politician.

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2024 09:01

Cycleorrun · Yesterday 20:30

The UK Communist party appear very gc. Does that mean they've swung to the right? Very confusing!

Yes, they're busy polishing their Swastikas as I write...

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 08:40

So the legislation actually covers everything properly, it's just spineless organisations and govt bodies refusing to implement the legislation that is the problem?

Like politicians, etc.

So unless women withdraw their support from companies and organisations that don't follow the legislation, they've no reason go change and do what they're supposed to

Hence our saying we're politically homeless. With a reducing number of facilities available yo me, unless I'm prepared to prop up an illegal system. I certainly can't afford to take every shop and gym to court, can I???

I've nowhere to work out unless I'm prepared to share changing facilities with men (i am not) or pay the vast expense of a Bannatyne membership (I cannot afford it), nor can I swim (shared changing) in our council pool. I can't send my girls to guides, as there are boys in the troop. I can't even guarantee that the bra fitting in m&s is female only.

Even though legislation says otherwise, all these places just cannot bring themselves to treat me like a full human being.

So I don't support them. Of course, that means I myself go without, but then who cares about that? I'm just a woman.