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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 15:45

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

Edited

Now that's just silly.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:42

It’s not as if we had guards in 2003 pre GRA

Go back to that

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:38

There’s no need for security guards it’s not a nightclub with bouncers

Just the new law would be great

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 22/04/2024 15:23

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Surely it's just as necessary, if not more so, to have security on mixed sex facilities, given that more assaults on women & chlidren happen there than in single sex facilities?

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 15:21

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Excellent point, Underthinker.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 14:42

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

I don’t know if you’ve missed what’s going on but we actually do get politicians to change

Self ID, puberty blockers, Cass review, school guidance, males in male prisons

Obviously we’re asking for more change but we’ve done pretty well

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 14:42

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

Agreed. Do you remember back in 2017 whenever any floating voter would be roundly trounced as a 'centrist dad' and told to 'eff off and vote tory'.

And so in 2019....they did 😂

Mindless tribalists are meaningless. General Elections get won and lost on the floating voter. The cnetrist. The undecided. That's why successful parties discover what matters to those voters and tailor their offer accordingly.

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

Floisme · 22/04/2024 14:33

Yeah I'm not sure either and I should repeat that I'm no lawyer! But I'm reminded of the lack of clarity that's helped to conflate 'sex' and 'gender'.

Anyway I'll rummage for Foran's input and report back.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:20

I know "exemption" and "exception" get used interchangeably a lot in discussions on the EA. I'm not 100% sure if there is a real legal difference between them or not.

This EHRC guidance talks only about exceptions.
Guidance published for providers of single-sex services | EHRC (equalityhumanrights.com)

I also read HOL report about the equality act from 2015ish I think that mostly used exception but slipped into exemption a few times seemingly without a clear difference in meaning.

Guidance published for providers of single-sex services | EHRC

A practical guide to the law in relation to single-sex spaces has been published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/guidance-published-providers-single-sex-services#:~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%2C%20you%20must%20not%20discriminate,limit%20access%20to%20certain%20groups%20in%20certain%20circumstances.

Dineasair · 22/04/2024 14:10

localnotail · 21/04/2024 22:02

IF labour were so fucking awful when they were in power all those years ago why amazing Tories done nothing about it in 13 years they have been in power? I repeat - NOTHING. Zilch. They only made it worse. How do you justify that?

Respect and safety of the vulnerable, particularly for women and children is my priority. This is the bedrock of any decent society, the very foundation that everything else is built on, if you can’t see this then I have nothing to say to you. Labour and the Lib Dem’s are not only allowing women to be oppressed, they are doing the threatening and bullying of women within their own fucking misogynist parties. That Rosie Duffield was advised to not attend a Labour conference due to fears of her actually being physically assaulted by members of the Labour Party is horrific beyond belief, these people are in the British Parliament for fucks sake! They are also actively pushing for harm to children through their support of the trans ideology. Wake up!

Floisme · 22/04/2024 14:09

Yes I'll look later and report back. I think it might have been one of his Twitter threads. I'm guessing it was most likely between Dodd's Guardian article in July 2023 and the end of the year.

Obviously it will still be just his legal opinion but it was the first time I'd noticed that there were two distinct words with two distinct meanings and that Dodds appeared to be using only one of them.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 14:03

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:57

I'll try and find it too but I'm supposed to be working so it might take a while!

😂 So am I!
I'd really appreciate a link if you did happen to lay your hand on it, as it were. I've done a little search, but fruitlessly.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:57

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:47

Excellent point, I did not know that. I kept thinking I'd misremembered the word. Michael Foran, you say? I shall look on his blog/website to see if I can find the piece you're talking about.

I'll try and find it too but I'm supposed to be working so it might take a while!

Thelnebriati · 22/04/2024 13:50

Another problem is that afaik, when they wrote the EA you could only get a new birth certificate after you had been granted a GRC.
So although you couldn't ask to see a GRC you could ask to see a birth certificate or passport, if there was any doubt. And thats no longer the case, anyone can change their legal sex marker without a GRC.

So now I think they should have made it an act of fraud for someone to claim or cause you to believe they have a GRC when they don't, since you can't ask to see it.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:47

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:41

That's why I think the difference between 'exemptions' and 'exceptions' appears so significant. If a revised EA allowed only for exemptions would that mean every single case had to be argued in the courts? What organisation or service would risk that?

I'm not a lawyer either, just a jaundiced one time Labour party member.

Excellent point, I did not know that. I kept thinking I'd misremembered the word. Michael Foran, you say? I shall look on his blog/website to see if I can find the piece you're talking about.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:41

That's why I think the difference between 'exemptions' and 'exceptions' appears so significant. If a revised EA allowed only for exemptions would that mean every single case had to be argued in the courts? What organisation or service would risk that?

I'm not a lawyer either, just a jaundiced one time Labour party member.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:27

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 10:59

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” is relevant?

In which case it sounds like the courts would be asked to decide on any challenge

Has there been a case yet? I don’t think there has from women, but if men were excluded they may do so

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”is relevant?

Yes, that's what I getting at. I won't add anything more because IANAL.
The EHRC guidance used to be very TWAW but I don't think the Act itself is.

My take is this - the implication (from bad training courses) was that you can only ever lawfully make separate provision for MCW with a GRC in exceptional circumstances + you have to decide on an individual case-by-case basis + you're not allowed to ask to see a GRC + a GRC doesn't require any modifications = you have to allow any man to use female facilities, even your 6 foot 4 trucker with a full beard, just in case he does hold a GRC saying he is female and he sues you. And in any case self-ID is on its way, etc, etc.

That was the strategy. But societal misogyny made it work. Hardly anyone came back with, but what if the women sue me? Or, but Dave from marketing obviously isn't a woman, he's going to stick out like a sore thumb in the ladies. Or no, I won't piss off my women customers/service users/clients.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 12:53

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 12:47

This is it. That's it, spot on.

It's bloody infuriating. The fact that our politicians are content to NOT FORCE organisations to follow the bloody law is a betrayal of democracy.

The law is weak and doesn’t predetermine the outcome

It’s why the rape centre case is going to court

Men will challenge any exclusion in courts, right up to the EC probably

It is a fault of the law created previously

As for what Labour propose there are conflicting lines as in pp on one hand they say private companies won’t be compelled to provide SS but on the other something will be ‘strengthened’

What exactly?

And how?

Their laws created this mess. It’s the worst kind of societal restructuring that they can’t fix

Unless the laws are changed

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 12:47

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:15

I think the problem lies in the fact that the rights are with organisations not women. I don't have a right to a single sex changing room, it's M+S who have the right to provide them IF they choose.

This is it. That's it, spot on.

It's bloody infuriating. The fact that our politicians are content to NOT FORCE organisations to follow the bloody law is a betrayal of democracy.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 12:44

WickedSerious · 22/04/2024 11:57

They could make an announcement along the lines of 'We know that legally we're allowed to exclude men from women's spaces but we really don't want to.Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

Spell it out for us and then everyone knows where they stand.

Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

I think a more accurate statement is "at the end of the day, their feelz are important to our profits"

  1. Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)
  1. Reputational risk of trans people complaining is higher and therefore more brand damaging, than GC people complaining.

I'm not sure there is that much any government could do to compel private companies to provide single sex spaces. I'd have thought if they try some companies will stop providing the space at all, or make them fully mixed sex which only really benefits men.

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:31

Maybe this one will be allowed

For Sarah. Information about the Brighton case directly from her. A link to raise funds also embedded here on Twitter - directly to her dedicated site.

https://twitter.com/sarahsurviving?lang=en-GB

https://twitter.com/sarahsurviving?lang=en-GB