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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

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Thread gallery
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IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:21

Just a reminder that the ERHC does not write the law it interprets it.

And has shown that like other arms of the Government, it can (and some say) may have been captured.

So yes, would be interesting to see what they would say today.

But still doesn't take away from the fact that the law says those providing single sex services have to justify it as being "proportional".

So much for having a protected characteristic, if its protection isn't automatic but has to be justified.

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EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:57

Is there a published more up to date page?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:56

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 17:52

It looks like this is from 2019. I think it's been updated by Kishwer Falkner. It was the stonewall friendly version before.

Oh bother!

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 17:56

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:42

‘Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the sex recorded at birth), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.’

‘A business may have a policy about providing its service to transsexual users, but this policy must still be applied on a case-by-case basis. It is necessary to balance the needs of the transsexual person for the service, and the disadvantage to them if they are refused access to it, against the needs of other users, and any disadvantage to them, if the transsexual person is allowed access. To do this may require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user).’

—
You can see from these paragraphs a business is going to be reluctant to end up in court, and a case by case basis is hard and asking users also

You can see why we are where we are with the law as it is

Are there any other court cases besides Sarah’s?

Is that from the EHRC guidance of 2018?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:52

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/04/2024 16:07

Agreed. The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.
It would help if politicians modelled respecting the social contract but looking at the behaviour of some and the silence of their leaders, suspect that's asking too much?

The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.

This sounds like music to my ears. Imagine if we got back to this place

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 17:52

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:38

It looks like this is from 2019. I think it's been updated by Kishwer Falkner. It was the stonewall friendly version before.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:50

Admittedly India Willoughby and Robin Moira White are not fans of Foran either @IwantToRetire so maybe you're right.

Anyway there it is, I'm sure posters can decide for themselves.

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:49

Sorry missed out the main point of the post just upthread about SSE.

That being that women have to justify why they are needed on a case by case basis.

As we know even though RCC were set up by women for women because of the principle that women were more likely to feel able to talk to other women, and that women are more likely to understand the trauma of rape.

So whilst I accept that we know some women's groups have been Stonewalled, the underlying misogyny of society, ie the MRAs who delight in the misogyny of the TRAs, just out of ingrained disrespect for women and to save money took the law as a green light to do away with women only provision that society as a whole had instinctively thought of as single sex. eg public toilets, hospital wards, changing rooms.

So this bias in the law against women's rights based on their sex has had a far wider negative implication than just those where TW insist on inserting themselves.

ie Women can no longer rely on society to do the right think by women. Not because they are all TRAs, but are engrained by the culture in this society that women dont have rights, or if they do women should accept they will always come second to every body else's.

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Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:47

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 17:46

Heh heh, Floisme

I put this into threadreader app and this is the link:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1741545323837763641.html

Ha why didn't I think of that Grin Thank you.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:46

Dodds is not just a Labour MP, she's a shadow minister and this is supposed to be her brief. She's normally very careful in how she words things and repeats statements verbatim. If she's substituting the word in error then that's quite a slip.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:42

‘Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the sex recorded at birth), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.’

‘A business may have a policy about providing its service to transsexual users, but this policy must still be applied on a case-by-case basis. It is necessary to balance the needs of the transsexual person for the service, and the disadvantage to them if they are refused access to it, against the needs of other users, and any disadvantage to them, if the transsexual person is allowed access. To do this may require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user).’

—
You can see from these paragraphs a business is going to be reluctant to end up in court, and a case by case basis is hard and asking users also

You can see why we are where we are with the law as it is

Are there any other court cases besides Sarah’s?

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:40

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:38

I beg the thread's pardon but if there are only 'exceptions' in the EA then why does Anneliese Dodds keep referring to 'exemptions'?

Because she is a Labour MP who either dont care or have read some bullshit from Stonewall.

But thanks for a post that's one thread.

I wonder how many Labour MPs, let alone future candidates have ever read the EA and how it operates?

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Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:38

I beg the thread's pardon but if there are only 'exceptions' in the EA then why does Anneliese Dodds keep referring to 'exemptions'?

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:35

Sometimes being on FWR is like being trapped in groundhog day.

And I suspect because I am a sloppy typist that I might have confused the issue.

In the EA there are only exceptions ie as I said up thread, the way the GRA interacts with the EA means that "for all purposes" TW with a GRC are "legal women".

That is why the law is baised against actual biological women. We only have rights based on our sex (even though it is a protect charateristic) when we can justify it is "proportional".

Those who have endlessly shown they have no committment or believe in women's sex based rights should be ignored and instead asks why they keep posting on a forum whose purpose they dont believe in and undermine.

And seriously, not sure why some nouveau commentator like Foran should be listened to.

On another thread I did susgest we should have a pinned post somewhere that sets out the SSE so we dont endlessly have to post about it.

If this wasn't the case why do you think so many people, both men and women, think the EA should clarify that the word sex means biological reality.

Seems another example of where the purpose of a thread get lost in a lot of whatabouterry. ie the same people always raising this red herring.

Has anyone got anything relating to any change or refusal to change by the Labour Party?

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Underthinker · 22/04/2024 17:31

Thanks @Floisme . I'm no longer on twitter but when I was I followed Foran. He is definitely hugely knowledgeable about the equality act so would definitely take his word over mine :)

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:27

I'm probably even further out of my depth than you are @Underthinker but Foran seems very clear that exemptions must be applied for.

I'll try and copy or screenshot the whole thread - that may take a while, sorry!

If I had a smidgeon of regard and faith left in Labour I guess I wouldn't be scrutinising them like this but here I am.

I feel like I'm in an acrimonious divorce where you don't believe a word the ex says until the lawyers have checked it. Sad state of affairs.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 17:15

I'm also not a lawyer and can't see the thread, so I'm probably going to be incorrectly correcting you, but my [limited] understanding was that there was no applying for exceptions or exemptions. I thought it was just a case of you either provide the service or you don't, and if you choose to exclude a user (based on sex) they either successfully sue you for discrimination or they don't.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:05

I think this is the Twixxer thread where Michael Foran makes a distinction between the meaning of single sex exceptions and exemptions in the Equality Act. It's a long thread and I'm aware that not everyone can access Twitter but the post that caught my eye at the time was this (bolding is mine):

'The default is equal treatment unless you’re within the realm of an exception (which apply automatically if the facts meet the legal tests below; exemptions must be actively applied for). If you’re covered by an exception the default is that a single sex service is lawful.'

Whole thread here if you can access it:
https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1741545323837763641

So if this is correct (and I repeat I'm no lawyer), I read it as saying that, of the two, invoking an exemption is more arduous, and can potentially be denied? That strikes me as quite a big distinction and yet I've only seen Anneliese Dodds talk about protecting the exemptions.

Maybe Labour will clarify in their manifesto. I'll be looking out for that and I'll also keep looking for the thread on this board where it was discussed at some length.

I add without comment that neither India Willoughby or Robin Moira White appear to hold Foran in high regard.

I also advise against ever searching for the phrase 'single sex spaces' on Twitter Shock

https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1741545323837763641

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 16:16

Completely agree @MrsOvertonsWindow . And speaking of modelling behaviour and social contracts. I think we should work towards a place where the
in the single sex spaces where the user is well known to the service provider, such as toilets and changing facilities in schools and workplaces, we normalise the idea there that trans people are perfectly safe and accepted using correct sex spaces. That can in turn filter out into more anonymous single sex spaces such as public toilets. This way the idea that TW would be unsafe in men's toilets would diminish because everyone would be used to them being there.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/04/2024 16:07

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:38

There’s no need for security guards it’s not a nightclub with bouncers

Just the new law would be great

Agreed. The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.
It would help if politicians modelled respecting the social contract but looking at the behaviour of some and the silence of their leaders, suspect that's asking too much?

GoodOldEmmaNess · 22/04/2024 16:06

Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Surely this is a red herring? No plausible suggested policy has been focused on 'banning' males from women's services. The real issue has always been around clarifying the fact that service providers are permitted to provide single-sex services.
The service providers would just have to do what they have always done - ask people to leave, terminate memberships, whatever. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to fear that they were breaking the law when they did this

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 15:55

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

Edited

That doesn't seem at all plausible.

You basically believe that TW are a law unto themselves and can't possibly be expected to obey laws on single sex spaces?

I expect like anything you will have a proportion of people who obey the rules and some who break them. But having the rule is still better than not.