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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 21:02

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 20:08

1 - Excluding transwomen from a Rape Crisis Centre is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of preventing women from experiencing additional trauma.

2 - M&S would be in breach of the EA if they excluded transwomen from the women's changing room if the changing room was made up of separate changing cubicles.

which indicates how the GRA / protected charateristic of transgender has undermined what were universally and totally accepted women only spaces based on biology.

No amount of attempts to say this clever person has said this, and this hasn't, the example above clearly shows how women's rights have been eroded.

At the very least the EA needs to be clarified that sex means biology.

Edited

The GRA has undermined the concept of women-only spaces - what you said originally that the EA was biased against women. I've never defended the GRA. The EA has taken back some of the territory lost.

Up until Haldane no-one questioned that sex meant bio sex in the EA. It's Haldane's novel interpretation which has created the uncertainty about women's single sex spaces.

Even if the government clarify that sex means bio sex by passing an amendment, there's no guarantee that TRAs won't find another line of attack on women's single sex spaces. Because destroying the concept of sex and replacing it with gender identity is their aim. There is no form of words which is invulnerable to misconstruction by bad faith actors.

localnotail · 22/04/2024 20:42

Dineasair · 22/04/2024 14:10

Respect and safety of the vulnerable, particularly for women and children is my priority. This is the bedrock of any decent society, the very foundation that everything else is built on, if you can’t see this then I have nothing to say to you. Labour and the Lib Dem’s are not only allowing women to be oppressed, they are doing the threatening and bullying of women within their own fucking misogynist parties. That Rosie Duffield was advised to not attend a Labour conference due to fears of her actually being physically assaulted by members of the Labour Party is horrific beyond belief, these people are in the British Parliament for fucks sake! They are also actively pushing for harm to children through their support of the trans ideology. Wake up!

Could please I remind you, again, that Labour are not in power, Tories are, and everything that is wrong is wrong because they allow it? TORIES ALLOWED THIS. THEY GOT US TO THIS POINT WHERE WE ARE SEEING WOMEN REDUCED TO "HUMANS WITH VAGINAS".

I'm not saying Labour is great - but two main parties are not very different in their attitude to trans issues, to them its not a big deal (believe me) and they will go with whatever will win votes. However, with Labour there is a chance the ruling classes will pause to think of poor, disabled, underprivileged - if only for a while, to make their life a bit better... With Tories, this will never, ever happen. They want poor to be proles - thick, uneducated, working hard and dying young. So its up to you, what kind of shit you want to rule you. Really bad one or slightly better one...

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 20:08

1 - Excluding transwomen from a Rape Crisis Centre is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of preventing women from experiencing additional trauma.

2 - M&S would be in breach of the EA if they excluded transwomen from the women's changing room if the changing room was made up of separate changing cubicles.

which indicates how the GRA / protected charateristic of transgender has undermined what were universally and totally accepted women only spaces based on biology.

No amount of attempts to say this clever person has said this, and this hasn't, the example above clearly shows how women's rights have been eroded.

At the very least the EA needs to be clarified that sex means biology.

OP posts:
Floisme · 22/04/2024 20:07

Thanks @JanesLittleGirl, I must remember to keep that for future reference

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:58

JanesLittleGirl · 22/04/2024 19:34

www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and

This is the most recent version. A couple of interesting points from it:

1 - Excluding transwomen from a Rape Crisis Centre is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of preventing women from experiencing additional trauma.

2 - M&S would be in breach of the EA if they excluded transwomen from the women's changing room if the changing room was made up of separate changing cubicles.

Thank you! I’m not sure why Google skipped over this more recent version it’s much better in terms of level of information

Sarah’s court case sounds promising given the first

JanesLittleGirl · 22/04/2024 19:34

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:57

Is there a published more up to date page?

www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and

This is the most recent version. A couple of interesting points from it:

1 - Excluding transwomen from a Rape Crisis Centre is a proportionate means to achieve the legitimate aim of preventing women from experiencing additional trauma.

2 - M&S would be in breach of the EA if they excluded transwomen from the women's changing room if the changing room was made up of separate changing cubicles.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:32

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:27

Yes I completely agree and can see no application via the courts is required but what I’m wondering is has any ‘toilets/refuges/RCCs/massage businesses’ achieved it without a male with GRC court challenge or with a challenge where the male with GRC lost?

Another way to ask is what proportion of spaces are using the proportionate and justified line to have a SS currently?

Sorry! Misunderstood. I don't know, I'm afraid.

But I have heard of Miller in which the ET found in favour of a woman who had to share toilets with men. There is another case whose name I can't remember which also found in favour of a woman who had to use a toilet with a shonky lock.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:28

DameMaud · 22/04/2024 19:21

Not sure of this relevant but there was the thread on this case from 2022; NHS tribunal that found in favour of a transwoman re hospital changing rooms- that I found totally confusing at the time.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593138-transwoman-wins-employment-discrimination-case-against-nhs-for-being-treated-differently-from-women-in-changing-room

That was a first tier judgement (so not binding) which the trust barely defended and didn't appeal. The legal opinion I read said the trust could have appealed because the Tribunal judge had used the wrong comparator. He compared the treatment of the MCW (man claiming to be a woman) to a woman without the PC of Gender Reassignment instead of a man without the PC of Gender Reassignment.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:27

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:14

Eastern Standard

We don't need to go to court to get the justification for single-sex toilets/refuges/RCCs/massage businesses etc approved - it's already approved by the existence of the exceptions. That's not to say that some bloody-minded TRA and an unscrupulous lawyer wouldn't take a provider to court for having single sex loos, but the lawyer really should advise them that they have no case.

Pre-Haldane, that would also have applied to women-only shortlists, etc. That's what's been made uncertain, and that's why FWS are going to court - they think the Lady Haldane and the Inner House have made errors in law by not giving Sex its ordinary meaning all the way through the EA.

IANAL, of course.

Yes I completely agree and can see no application via the courts is required but what I’m wondering is has any ‘toilets/refuges/RCCs/massage businesses’ achieved it without a male with GRC court challenge or with a challenge where the male with GRC lost?

Another way to ask is what proportion of spaces are using the proportionate and justified line to have a SS currently?

DameMaud · 22/04/2024 19:21

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:05

Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

Is there anywhere that has justified this in a court when challenged by a male with a GRC or other?

Not sure of this relevant but there was the thread on this case from 2022; NHS tribunal that found in favour of a transwoman re hospital changing rooms- that I found totally confusing at the time.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593138-transwoman-wins-employment-discrimination-case-against-nhs-for-being-treated-differently-from-women-in-changing-room

Transwoman wins employment discrimination case against NHS for being treated differently from women in changing room | Mumsnet

I thought there was a thread on this but I can't find it. Maybe it was deleted? I shall choose my words very carefully. The court found that the unn...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593138-transwoman-wins-employment-discrimination-case-against-nhs-for-being-treated-differently-from-women-in-changing-room

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:21

In fact interesting to read the EHRC letter to the Senedd that seems to contradict the Haldane ruling on representation on Boards.

In particular, we are concerned that the Bill appears to base eligibility for inclusion on the quota list, on candidates’ declarations of whether or not they are a woman, and this in conjunction with the term ‘gender’ may be insufficiently clear. In short, it may lead to the inclusion of quotas based on a person’s self-identified gender as opposed to their legal sex, and may therefore be inconsistent with the Act.

This does not conflict with Haldane. Haldane says that a person's legal sex is their certificated sex, ie not Self-ID. Self-ID is not the law in the UK. If the Senedd based eligibility only on certificated sex ie GRCs, or bio sex, it would be fine. (Pending a successful appeal by FWS of Haldane's judgement.)

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:14

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:05

Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

Is there anywhere that has justified this in a court when challenged by a male with a GRC or other?

Eastern Standard

We don't need to go to court to get the justification for single-sex toilets/refuges/RCCs/massage businesses etc approved - it's already approved by the existence of the exceptions. That's not to say that some bloody-minded TRA and an unscrupulous lawyer wouldn't take a provider to court for having single sex loos, but the lawyer really should advise them that they have no case.

Pre-Haldane, that would also have applied to women-only shortlists, etc. That's what's been made uncertain, and that's why FWS are going to court - they think the Lady Haldane and the Inner House have made errors in law by not giving Sex its ordinary meaning all the way through the EA.

IANAL, of course.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 19:11

At the risk of reigniting your ire @IwantToRetire I was also surprised by your summary dismissal of Michael Foran. I see him reposted fairly regularly so, if he's someone to be avoided, it would be useful to know why.

But thanks for a post that's one thread.
Also what did this mean?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:05

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 18:56

I don't know why you are so dismissive of Michael Foran, IWantToRetire He is an academic lawyer.

We don't have to justify women-only therapy sessions in RCCs, or women-only RCCs, on a case-by-case basis. Blanket rules are lawful. That is unaffected by Haldane. It's one of the examples given in the explanatory notes for the Act of a single-sex service that can exclude all males, with or without a GRC.

The same section of the GRA which says that males with a GRC become female for all purposes (section 9 subsection 1) has a further subsection (subsection 3) which says:
Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.
This means that you can distinguish males with GRCs from women in later legislation and the EA does. None of this was contentious before TRA misinformation and Haldane's judgement.

Her judgement was partially overturned by the Inner House to restore maternity and pregnancy protections to WCM (women who claim to be men). The Inner House agreed with Lady Haldane that Sex in the Equality Act meant bio sex + legal sex BUT also decided that the same word - Sex - must mean bio sex alone in the provisions about maternity and pregnancy. Foran argues that to give the word sex two different meanings in the same piece of legislation doesn't make sense.
Sex = bio sex was the normal meaning of the word "sex" at the time.
Foran argues that none of the provisions or exceptions of the Equality Act make sense if they don't refer to bio sex. Eg where the condition of applying the SSE is "that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex", women's objection to a male person in the room would be because he was male, not because he didn't have a certificate to say he was female.

Anyway, we'll see what the Supreme Court decide.

Foran also pointed out the protection of the privacy, dignity and safety of women are human rights. So they will always be legitimate aims. Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

Edited

Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

Is there anywhere that has justified this in a court when challenged by a male with a GRC or other?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:01

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:55

You said go back to pre 2003 in respect of changing rooms/toilets etc
I'm not clear what you mean as TW used to use those spaces then.

The point I was making is if people genuinely want fully single sex spaces (I.e. no TW ever by law) then there will need to be some policing of the spaces. Businesses may not want to bear the financial or reputational costs.

It's really not that hard to follow and makes me wonder if you've thought through your position or if you just expect someone else to wave a magic wand and give you what you want.

It doesn’t bother me what you think of my posts. I’m posting on FWR because I appreciate engaging with others who are reasonable

If you can’t understand maybe read again

You’ve misunderstood and I doubt you’ll attempt to do so but if you can look at @MrsOvertonsWindow post earlier who I agree with and the general conversation which shows our thoughts

I’m with @Floisme on this too, there are others you can engage with. Enjoy

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:00

I'm guessing here, but it may be that you think the EA is biased against women because there have to be legal justifications for excluding men. I would think that's partly because it is an anti-discrimination act which starts from the premise that discrimination on the basis of 9 PCs is unlawful. This premise actually protects women because the default position is that women can't be excluded for spurious reasons. And that also applies to men because it's equality legislation.
The other reason I would put forward is that has to take account of the effect of the GRA. It does so by tightening up the definition of "woman" to exclude males. It makes a nod towards the legal fact that male GRC-holders are deemed to have changed sex, and makes it only a little more difficult to exclude them from women-only services - but they absolutely can be excluded, even after Haldane's judgement.

It's not the EA that stuffs women, it's the GRA. The EA redresses the balance.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 18:56

I don't know why you are so dismissive of Michael Foran, IWantToRetire He is an academic lawyer.

We don't have to justify women-only therapy sessions in RCCs, or women-only RCCs, on a case-by-case basis. Blanket rules are lawful. That is unaffected by Haldane. It's one of the examples given in the explanatory notes for the Act of a single-sex service that can exclude all males, with or without a GRC.

The same section of the GRA which says that males with a GRC become female for all purposes (section 9 subsection 1) has a further subsection (subsection 3) which says:
Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.
This means that you can distinguish males with GRCs from women in later legislation and the EA does. None of this was contentious before TRA misinformation and Haldane's judgement.

Her judgement was partially overturned by the Inner House to restore maternity and pregnancy protections to WCM (women who claim to be men). The Inner House agreed with Lady Haldane that Sex in the Equality Act meant bio sex + legal sex BUT also decided that the same word - Sex - must mean bio sex alone in the provisions about maternity and pregnancy. Foran argues that to give the word sex two different meanings in the same piece of legislation doesn't make sense.
Sex = bio sex was the normal meaning of the word "sex" at the time.
Foran argues that none of the provisions or exceptions of the Equality Act make sense if they don't refer to bio sex. Eg where the condition of applying the SSE is "that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex", women's objection to a male person in the room would be because he was male, not because he didn't have a certificate to say he was female.

Anyway, we'll see what the Supreme Court decide.

Foran also pointed out the protection of the privacy, dignity and safety of women are human rights. So they will always be legitimate aims. Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:55

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:49

Who said they did? Hmm

We still functioned as a society and it was better for women and children

You said go back to pre 2003 in respect of changing rooms/toilets etc
I'm not clear what you mean as TW used to use those spaces then.

The point I was making is if people genuinely want fully single sex spaces (I.e. no TW ever by law) then there will need to be some policing of the spaces. Businesses may not want to bear the financial or reputational costs.

It's really not that hard to follow and makes me wonder if you've thought through your position or if you just expect someone else to wave a magic wand and give you what you want.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:51

The suggestion of security guards however is nonsensical as a few posters have pointed out

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:49

GoodOldEmmaNess · 22/04/2024 16:06

Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Surely this is a red herring? No plausible suggested policy has been focused on 'banning' males from women's services. The real issue has always been around clarifying the fact that service providers are permitted to provide single-sex services.
The service providers would just have to do what they have always done - ask people to leave, terminate memberships, whatever. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to fear that they were breaking the law when they did this

I agree with you. The law already allows this, no need for a separate law. But some people are adamant we need one 🤷‍♀️

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:49

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:48

Trans women used the ladies then too Confused they didn't just pop into existence with the GRA

Who said they did? Hmm

We still functioned as a society and it was better for women and children

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:48

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:42

It’s not as if we had guards in 2003 pre GRA

Go back to that

Trans women used the ladies then too Confused they didn't just pop into existence with the GRA

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 18:30

The article I posted above is interesting.

This week the Equality and Human Rights Commission, an independent watchdog responsible for monitoring the effectiveness of equality law throughout the U.K., advised ministers to carefully consider clarifying the meaning of sex in the Equality Act.

Annaliese Dodds says, if I'm right, they're not going to change the Equality Act.

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:26

In fact interesting to read the EHRC letter to the Senedd that seems to contradict the Haldane ruling on representation on Boards.

In particular, we are concerned that the Bill appears to base eligibility for inclusion on the quota list, on candidates’ declarations of whether or not they are a woman, and this in conjunction with the term ‘gender’ may be insufficiently clear. In short, it may lead to the inclusion of quotas based on a person’s selfidentified gender as opposed to their legal sex, and may therefore be inconsistent with the Act.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/our-letter-senedd-reform-bill-committee

(edit ie a later statement than the guidance written in 2022)

Our letter to the Senedd Reform Bill Committee | EHRC

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/our-letter-senedd-reform-bill-committee

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:25

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:21

Just a reminder that the ERHC does not write the law it interprets it.

And has shown that like other arms of the Government, it can (and some say) may have been captured.

So yes, would be interesting to see what they would say today.

But still doesn't take away from the fact that the law says those providing single sex services have to justify it as being "proportional".

So much for having a protected characteristic, if its protection isn't automatic but has to be justified.

Yes you’re right it’s just an interpretation

Is it fair to say that the law as it is does not protect women but the courts are where the issue of justification can be decided?

I don’t think we have many court cases atm (for obvious reasons)