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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
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15
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 20/04/2024 07:16

songaboutjam · 19/04/2024 21:36

I have felt increasingly alienated from the left over the past 5 years. As a student, I was a Corbynista.

All the sneering and smearing I've encountered, often from people in a social class above mine, is pushing me even further away from ever voting Labour again. I'm afraid Labour is starting to come across as the snobby out of touch party.

Why on earth would I vote for or identify with a political wing that a) considers me an ignorant peasant and b) couldn't give a shiny shit about the protected characteristics that make life more difficult for me and others like me?

I've been in abusive relationships before. I am not staying in this one.

An abusive relationship is exactly what it is.

Jean said, Many feminist women who have stayed loyal to the Labour Party (despite leadership refusal to debate with, or give them any semblance of fair hearing on, the trans issue), have done so because they know that a Labour Party in government is crucial to provide the public services and social care so vital to the most vulnerable people in society, particularly women and children. It has been an act of sacrifice for the greater good, which, it seems, has largely been taken for granted by Labour leaders.

This has been going on for years, and many of the women remaining loyal no matter what remind me of mothers staying with violent men to protect their children, because they're scared what he'll do to the children instead if the family courts award him unsupervised access in a divorce.

It's a horrific bind that countless women are in across the country, and I understand it's a terrifying choice for women. I may be forced to vote Labour in the end, but they can't make me pretend to love them.

EasternStandard · 20/04/2024 07:10

It’s also worth comparing with other countries similarly using gender ideology. The U.K. is starting to lead in reversing the harms

EasternStandard · 20/04/2024 06:56

Zodfa · 19/04/2024 23:12

Pretty much every single pro-transgender policy we have has come about under a Tory government, let's not kid ourselves they're competent to get us out of this mess however much they mightike to posture against it.

There has been progress in the right direction though given the Cass review, and puberty blocker ban plus stopping GRR Scotland

The GRA is Labour legislation which they will defend

Underthinker · 20/04/2024 06:54

To anyone claiming that Labour's stance on gender has just been them avoiding a conservative "culture war", don't forget that at their last leadership contest, 3 of the 4 candidates, signed a pledge on trans rights that amonhst other nonsense called Woman’s Place UK and LGB Alliance "trans-exclusionist hate groups".
The Tories didn't make them do that did they? Labour were willingly and idiotically leaping into the fray.

IwantToRetire · 20/04/2024 00:45

As someone who lives in a Labour borough which has the second worst record on the condition of their housing and treatment of tenants, I dont understand how anyone can think Labour in government will be any better.

And everyday in terms of policies and priorities is a snub to the traditional working class established communities in favour of the rich incomers who have their leisure time activities pandered to at the expense of basic services.

Let alone the PPP that have put many schools and hospitals into a state of permenant debt, much like developing countries who pay out more in loan repayments than current expenditure.

The list is endless.

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songaboutjam · 20/04/2024 00:03

TempestTost · 19/04/2024 23:50

They have enormous support from bullies and the comfortable middle classes, whilst holding working and low middle class people in thinly veiled contempt.

TBH, this personally is the bit that really bothers me most.

The moment I was condescended to by a privately educated, immensely privileged (now ex) friend was the moment my last shreds of political affiliation disappeared into the wind.

I don't really have a claim on being working class, and I'm very fortunate to have attended university (although I nearly didn't). But I grew up in a family where we rarely had much money, didn't get foreign holidays, grew up barely affording central heating, and were beneficiaries of several bursaries. I have taken minimum wage and blue collar work my entire adult life because there was nothing else available. Sorry to my ex-friend, but "ambition" doesn't pay my bills.

I do not appreciate privileged Labour voters who've never worked shifts / manual jobs / unsociable hours and grew up holidaying on tropical islands, implying they think they know better than me.

TempestTost · 19/04/2024 23:50

songaboutjam · 19/04/2024 22:30

Well said. Labour has proven (among other things):

They don't understand biology, since they're on record as saying that only most women have cervixes and no penises.

They jump onto fashionable bandwagons regardless of scientific evidence, harm to other groups or how silly / credulous it makes them look.

They lie through their teeth ("it never comes up on the doorstep").

They malign and treat their own politicians like crap (Rosie Duffield).

They're a shockingly mealy mouthed opposition party and don't have the first clue how to take advantage of bad Tory policies.

They subscribe to the laws of misogyny (a man is whatever he says he is and a woman is whatever a man says she is).

They have enormous support from bullies and the comfortable middle classes, whilst holding working and low middle class people in thinly veiled contempt.

In light of all this, what on earth is Labour selling that a) we can trust them to deliver and b) isn't just "not the Tories"?

They have enormous support from bullies and the comfortable middle classes, whilst holding working and low middle class people in thinly veiled contempt.

TBH, this personally is the bit that really bothers me most.

NoWordForFluffy · 19/04/2024 23:18

Zodfa · 19/04/2024 23:12

Pretty much every single pro-transgender policy we have has come about under a Tory government, let's not kid ourselves they're competent to get us out of this mess however much they mightike to posture against it.

Labour legislation allowed it and the Tories left the civil service and public sector institutions to it, as Tories are wont to do. It wasn't a proactive move as such, they were asleep at the wheel.

They've acknowledged they have been the party in charge this week during the Cass discussions. At least it looks like they're trying to fix it now.

Zodfa · 19/04/2024 23:12

Pretty much every single pro-transgender policy we have has come about under a Tory government, let's not kid ourselves they're competent to get us out of this mess however much they mightike to posture against it.

duc748 · 19/04/2024 23:01

Food banks.

NHS on its knees.

Schools literally crumbling.

Sewage in our rivers and water supplies.

Quite apart from anything, do you really have any confidence that Labour will do any more to fix these problems than the Tories? I don't. But if they can't treat women with respect and dignity, they don't deserve anyone's vote.

Cailleach1 · 19/04/2024 22:31

Forgot to mention the police harassing women who stand up for their rights. The courageous Jenni Swayne who was arrested for putting up stickers about the rights of women. The police being used (and quite happily acted) to harass Kelly Jay Keen for being ‘untoward about paedophiles’. Women congregating being told to disperse when other groups were not restricted, or suppressed. Women talking about women’s rights brought in for questioning, and their property searched.

Yeah, if only it was the state of a building. It is that as well, along with harassment and discrimination by organs of the state.

songaboutjam · 19/04/2024 22:30

TempestTost · 19/04/2024 22:15

Labour has shown themself, in this, to be moronic, cowardly, conniving, and untrustworthy.

They also clearly have very serious problems in their institutional structures as a party.

That's not a set of characteristics that is only going to impact a "single issue".

Well said. Labour has proven (among other things):

They don't understand biology, since they're on record as saying that only most women have cervixes and no penises.

They jump onto fashionable bandwagons regardless of scientific evidence, harm to other groups or how silly / credulous it makes them look.

They lie through their teeth ("it never comes up on the doorstep").

They malign and treat their own politicians like crap (Rosie Duffield).

They're a shockingly mealy mouthed opposition party and don't have the first clue how to take advantage of bad Tory policies.

They subscribe to the laws of misogyny (a man is whatever he says he is and a woman is whatever a man says she is).

They have enormous support from bullies and the comfortable middle classes, whilst holding working and low middle class people in thinly veiled contempt.

In light of all this, what on earth is Labour selling that a) we can trust them to deliver and b) isn't just "not the Tories"?

Cailleach1 · 19/04/2024 22:22

The NHS which lied to the police when a woman had been raped. The indoctrination which makes it easier for rapes and attacks on women. Stupid women for not wanting to be vulnerable, or wanting some dignity. huh.

Prisons which lock women up with rapists, other violent males and stressed out by the presence of males who say they too are women. Women getting extra punishment when not good likkle girlies and pretend the man is a woman as he wants. Lisa Nandy wants the special men to be able to go exactly where they want. If that means women suffer, who cares.

Education which is teaching made up, anti scientific, ideological balderdash. Bathrooms set up where girls in a state of undress have to negotiate intimate areas with teenage boys getting access. Stories of girls not wanting to go during their period in such circumstances, or depriving themselves of water so as not to have to be in that uncomfortable space.

Sports, funding, safe and fair access, representation in public life. Organise as a sex class for representation without hostility for not pretending we are a discrete class. The list goes on and on, and on ad nauseum.

That is on top of all the other stuff.

TempestTost · 19/04/2024 22:15

thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:43

FFS.

This is all the Tories have got.

Single issues that their right wing press allies throw out to distract voters from everything else.

Like everything else.

Food banks.

NHS on its knees.

Schools literally crumbling.

Sewage in our rivers and water supplies.

And the list goes on....

Labour has shown themself, in this, to be moronic, cowardly, conniving, and untrustworthy.

They also clearly have very serious problems in their institutional structures as a party.

That's not a set of characteristics that is only going to impact a "single issue".

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 21:48

I've been in abusive relationships before. I am not staying in this one.

Goodness, that's powerful.

And as I said I am now JH follower but thing she has set out the dilemma for women really well.

And why I picked out the paragraphs about how there comes time when being nice and genteel and apologetic just has to end.

How dare men tell us we dont have the right to be angry.

And as the article says:

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not?

Lets all be JKR or even KJK and go on being so until men understand they cant just assume that in the end we will just meekly give in and be good girls and do what we are told.

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songaboutjam · 19/04/2024 21:36

I have felt increasingly alienated from the left over the past 5 years. As a student, I was a Corbynista.

All the sneering and smearing I've encountered, often from people in a social class above mine, is pushing me even further away from ever voting Labour again. I'm afraid Labour is starting to come across as the snobby out of touch party.

Why on earth would I vote for or identify with a political wing that a) considers me an ignorant peasant and b) couldn't give a shiny shit about the protected characteristics that make life more difficult for me and others like me?

I've been in abusive relationships before. I am not staying in this one.

CocoapuffPuff · 19/04/2024 21:30

No. No we can't trust them.

I cant believe courage and integrity is so lacking in ALL our politicians.

My Granny was a suffragette. I may have a vote thanks to her generation, but i have not one fucker worth using it on.

Fucking terrific.

Geebray · 19/04/2024 21:06

thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:43

FFS.

This is all the Tories have got.

Single issues that their right wing press allies throw out to distract voters from everything else.

Like everything else.

Food banks.

NHS on its knees.

Schools literally crumbling.

Sewage in our rivers and water supplies.

And the list goes on....

Excuse me! Please don't patronise us by telling us we are being "distracted" by the Tories. This is about the Labour party, and whether women can trust them.

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 21:06

This is a party that reaches out to racists.

Is that who you are?

The single issue campaign is cynical and insincere.

Don't buy in

What are you talking about.

What single issue campaign do you imagine you are talking about.

Try and engage with the discussion, instead of just pumping out standard reply 99 or 240.

I do hope this isn't a well known I dont believe in sex and gender so I am coming on the thread about sex and gender to lecture women who dare talk about it.

How about a well thought out and mature response to ...

how can I vote for a party that doesn't recognise what I am? Would it really not be like a turkey voting for Christmas?

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NoWordForFluffy · 19/04/2024 21:06

thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:56

This is a party that reaches out to racists.

Is that who you are?

The single issue campaign is cynical and insincere.

Don't buy in

It's not a single issue. Women's sex-based rights cover a whole range of issues. Anyone calling it a single issue either doesn't understand or is deliberately minimising it to try to stop the focus on it.

HappyEater · 19/04/2024 21:05

Annaliese Dodds is another horror. Still completely capitulated.

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 21:03

thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:43

FFS.

This is all the Tories have got.

Single issues that their right wing press allies throw out to distract voters from everything else.

Like everything else.

Food banks.

NHS on its knees.

Schools literally crumbling.

Sewage in our rivers and water supplies.

And the list goes on....

Sorry but this is just a knee jerk response and doesn't engage with the article.

Even to try and imply that this article is a Tory ploy is just insulting to the author who by the way I had no allegiances to.

The article isn't about the tories.

It is about the state of the Labour Party.

If you want to moan about the Tories you could start a thread about it.

Why try to silence women who do have or had some Labour Party affiliation from being able to express how they feel.

In the interest of transparency I am not affiliated to the Labour Party!

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thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:56

Swashbuckled · 19/04/2024 20:51

@thistimelastweek

I know.

But how can I vote for a party that doesn't recognise what I am? Would it really not be like a turkey voting for Christmas?

This is a party that reaches out to racists.

Is that who you are?

The single issue campaign is cynical and insincere.

Don't buy in

Swashbuckled · 19/04/2024 20:51

@thistimelastweek

I know.

But how can I vote for a party that doesn't recognise what I am? Would it really not be like a turkey voting for Christmas?

thistimelastweek · 19/04/2024 20:43

FFS.

This is all the Tories have got.

Single issues that their right wing press allies throw out to distract voters from everything else.

Like everything else.

Food banks.

NHS on its knees.

Schools literally crumbling.

Sewage in our rivers and water supplies.

And the list goes on....