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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

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EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:57

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:54

It means women who don't mind sharing some spaces with trans women, and don't feel the need to be rigidly TWAM. There are a lot of us about. In fact the polling suggests that is the majority view.

Which spaces do you mean exactly?

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:56

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:54

It means women who don't mind sharing some spaces with trans women, and don't feel the need to be rigidly TWAM. There are a lot of us about. In fact the polling suggests that is the majority view.

Pretty sure the polling only showed that when it wasn't made clear how many TW kept fully-functioning genitalia.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:55

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:52

At least it's likely they'll do it. You're claiming that repealing the GRA is the only way to fix it. It isn't, and it looks to be in the manifesto, which is good news.

Labour aren't offering that. They've explicitly said they won't.

It’s pretty much the only way to deal with the mess the GRA has created

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:54

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:51

'Trans accepting'? What does that mean? You can accept trans people without thinking they change sex. Hell, my transman friend knows that your sex isn't changed, just your gender.

It means women who don't mind sharing some spaces with trans women, and don't feel the need to be rigidly TWAM. There are a lot of us about. In fact the polling suggests that is the majority view.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:54

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:49

You give me way too much credit Eastern. I'm not following the party line. I'm a member and that's as far as it goes. Not campaigning, not active, not aware of "the party line".

Also I am a woman, and there are plenty of women who are trans accepting. If the "party line" was TWAM, women with a different view would be ignored. You are being pretty black and white. Women aren't a hive mind.

Whether they’ve let you personally know or not it’s obvious that’s the tactic.

You don’t mind, many do hence these threads.

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:52

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:50

They've been "mulling" that for over a year. I was hoping it would be in the King's Speech. They just need to get on with it at this point.

At least it's likely they'll do it. You're claiming that repealing the GRA is the only way to fix it. It isn't, and it looks to be in the manifesto, which is good news.

Labour aren't offering that. They've explicitly said they won't.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:52

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:47

I don't have a subscription to read this in full or provide a share token, but the Tories are considering putting in their manifesto what they'll amend the EA to resolve the GRA / GRC loophole: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/16/rishi-sunak-amend-equality-act-single-sex-spaces-sport/#:~:text=During%20the%20summer%202022%20leadership,bodily%20privacy%20and%20dignity%2C%20such

You can read it by clicking the link then immediately going airplane mode.

Government sources said Mrs Badenoch was among those who recognised that “if we can’t do it in this Parliament it is something that many MPs want to see in our next manifesto”.

Pretty vague to be honest. We will see. Bring on the GE.

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:51

'Trans accepting'? What does that mean? You can accept trans people without thinking they change sex. Hell, my transman friend knows that your sex isn't changed, just your gender.

Swashbuckled · 21/04/2024 10:50

Just had the Labour canvasser at my door. Told him my current views and concerns about Labour. He was smiling throughout. I asked him about the smiling, explaining I felt this to be a very serious issue. And that I wanted him to take my views back with him, which he said he would.

I asked him his own view on single sex spaces. He said he didn’t feel he could have an opinion as he was a man, and it was a women’s issue. I explained why he needed to raise his awareness. He said he wasn’t aware really of the issues I was raising. He asked me if I could point him to places where he could brush up his knowledge. I think he was humouring me, and trying to present a face of amenable humility on the doorstep.

He said I was the only person to have raised this. I don’t think he took me seriously and think he saw me as some far outlier. It was disappointingly weak encounter.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:50

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 10:47

I don't have a subscription to read this in full or provide a share token, but the Tories are considering putting in their manifesto what they'll amend the EA to resolve the GRA / GRC loophole: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/03/16/rishi-sunak-amend-equality-act-single-sex-spaces-sport/#:~:text=During%20the%20summer%202022%20leadership,bodily%20privacy%20and%20dignity%2C%20such

They've been "mulling" that for over a year. I was hoping it would be in the King's Speech. They just need to get on with it at this point.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:49

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:45

So Labour promotion on here is to ignore women

It’s pretty obvious that’s the party line

You give me way too much credit Eastern. I'm not following the party line. I'm a member and that's as far as it goes. Not campaigning, not active, not aware of "the party line".

Also I am a woman, and there are plenty of women who are trans accepting. If the "party line" was TWAM, women with a different view would be ignored. You are being pretty black and white. Women aren't a hive mind.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:45

So Labour promotion on here is to ignore women

It’s pretty obvious that’s the party line

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2024 10:45

I've always found Labour's long held stance of 'well, we might be better than the Tories so vote for us, you thickos!' to be utterly bizarre.

No inspiring policies. Very few politicians that you think 'I'm proud that you're my representative'.

No, no. Just 'we're a bit less shit than the Tories. Maybe. If we can magic up money from somewhere.'

It really doesn't inspire a poster, does it?

NecessaryScene · 21/04/2024 10:39

You don't take a fight to an opponent on their chosen territory unless you want to lose.

Or, here's a cunning plan - how about NOT FIGHTING THEM on that territory?

When they're clearly in the right?

Or do Labour think they have to fight on principle?

Datun · 21/04/2024 10:37

If he was insincere he'd be parroting what people want to hear knowing he was going to let them down.

Who would he be letting down?? TRAs?

Confirming that he agrees prisons and sport should be sex segregated shouldn't be 'parroting what people want to hear', ffs.

You don't take a fight to an opponent on their chosen territory unless you want to lose.

He should totally ignore women's and girls rights and safety on the basis that the Tories aren't. Got it.

As a Labour Party promotor Adam, you have the opposite effect.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 10:31

Starmer has used two conflicting lines

The adult female one and penis one. Which one is the lie?

And he’s very keen not to see the issue raised with the ‘no one’s talking about it’ line

The very last thing he wants to do is respond accurately to direct questions

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:27

Datun · 21/04/2024 09:32

AdamRyan

if you're so convinced you can trust the Labour Party on this issue, why do you think it is they're not coming right out and explaining their exact stance?

If they don't believe that rapists should be sent to women's prisons why don't they say so? If they don't think that women wanting to retain sex segregated spaces are dinosaurs, why don't they just say so?

Why do you think, personally, given your allegiance to the party, they're not reassuring women in a way that comes across as sincere and believable?

When women who would traditionally vote labour are left feeling utterly gaslit, lied to and fobbed off, and the party is in no doubt about this, why aren't they doing something about it?

I think because thanks to Lee Anderson it's very clear the Conservatives want the election to be fought on this issue.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html

You don't take a fight to an opponent on their chosen territory unless you want to lose.

Also all the parties are going to keep quiet until an election is called. Then we will see what's in their manifesto.

Why do you think, personally, given your allegiance to the party, they're not reassuring women in a way that comes across as sincere and believable?

I've only recently become a party member and I can't answer why other people don't find Starmer sincere and believable. Or even just more sincere and believable than Sunak. I do think he's sincere. If he was insincere he'd be parroting what people want to hear knowing he was going to let them down.

I wasn't a member under Corbyn, Corbyn and momentum seemed ridiculously misogynistic. Starmer seems to have done a good job of clearing them out, as shown by L'OJ's recent flounce.

Lee Anderson says Tories should fight election on ‘culture wars’

Party no longer has ‘great ingredients’ like Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn, says deputy chairman

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lee-anderson-tories-election-trans-b2282185.html

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 10:05

Snowypeaks · 21/04/2024 00:05

He doesn't have the courage or honesty to say it straight out, but by saying 99% of women don't have penises, KS is saying TWAW. AdamRyan is adding the gloss that KS means that TWAW legally if they have a certificate. It comes to the same thing. That men can be women (if they have a GRC). That a male body can be a female body. That sex is not entirely biological.

Someone who believes that a certificate or a feeling deep inside makes a man a woman is a misogynist who cannot be trusted to uphold women's sex-based rights and protect our single sex spaces, services and sports.

I agree with you about the definitions snowy. I'd prefer to see TW being referred to as TW, and the GRA being a way to give them legal recognition as a separate group to "men".

Unfortunately no parties are proposing repealing the GRA. And only Labour are saying they will change it at all.

Therefore all the arguing about "Labour say 0.1% of women have a penis" is irrelevant. That's what we are getting after the election, regardless of who wins. At least Labour are honest about it.

I understand all the women who feel let down and betrayed by them. I don't understand the people who claim to be "ex Labour" and are repeating incorrect statements about Labour's position. Those people are just doing Les Anderson's job for him.

Datun · 21/04/2024 09:32

AdamRyan

if you're so convinced you can trust the Labour Party on this issue, why do you think it is they're not coming right out and explaining their exact stance?

If they don't believe that rapists should be sent to women's prisons why don't they say so? If they don't think that women wanting to retain sex segregated spaces are dinosaurs, why don't they just say so?

Why do you think, personally, given your allegiance to the party, they're not reassuring women in a way that comes across as sincere and believable?

When women who would traditionally vote labour are left feeling utterly gaslit, lied to and fobbed off, and the party is in no doubt about this, why aren't they doing something about it?

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 08:27

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 08:24

Our council made it a local issue when they passed a motion saying TWAW and TMAM. If it wasn't a local issue, they shouldn't have wasted time on such bullshit.

I'm hoping our prospective Labour MP comes round before the GE. I've met him once before, and he seemed nice. I didn't get to ask him much though, as he was visiting the allotments at the time. No sign of idiocy on this issue on his TwiX account.

I just don't know if a brand new MP would be able to do anything other than toe the party line though. I suppose it depends what things they're Whipped on.

Well since the few decent experienced MP’s in the party aren’t able to do anything either, I suspect you’re right.

SinnerBoy · 21/04/2024 08:25

HelenaTranscart · 19/04/2024 19:19

I don't trust Starmer and the swivel-eyed lunatics like Lisa (TWAW) Nandy who surround him. I won't vote for them.

I couldn't agree more.

I hate the Tories but I'll hold my nose and vote Conservative on this single issue.

I can't bring myself to vote Tory and am likely to spoil my ballot paper, Labour is almost certain to win where I live, anyway. I can't find anything to suggest that Alan Campbell is TRA, but neither can I find anything to suggest that he's a sex realist.

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 08:24

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 08:20

I really hope someone comes round so I can ask.

The LD councillor candidate got really flustered; this isn’t what local elections are about, why are you asking this?!!!

Its exhausting.

Edited

Our council made it a local issue when they passed a motion saying TWAW and TMAM. If it wasn't a local issue, they shouldn't have wasted time on such bullshit.

I'm hoping our prospective Labour MP comes round before the GE. I've met him once before, and he seemed nice. I didn't get to ask him much though, as he was visiting the allotments at the time. No sign of idiocy on this issue on his TwiX account.

I just don't know if a brand new MP would be able to do anything other than toe the party line though. I suppose it depends what things they're Whipped on.

borntobequiet · 21/04/2024 08:20

I actually voted Labour at the last GE (having previously voted Liberal/LD all my voting life, because I’m an out-and-out centrist) but did so on the basis that they had the one standout good policy of all the parties.

The tone and approach of those promoting and defending Labour on this particular issue on here makes it very unlikely I will give them my vote again.

HappyEater · 21/04/2024 08:20

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 08:18

My canvassers just refused to talk about it! Listened to me, then ran away. I know our council is really captured though, so I imagine they'd have been more Nandy than Duffield if they had engaged.

I really hope someone comes round so I can ask.

The LD councillor candidate got really flustered; this isn’t what local elections are about, why are you asking this?!!!

Its exhausting.