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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

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EasternStandard · 05/05/2024 12:24

Datun · 04/05/2024 15:35

Personally, I'm very suspect over any party that could create a law that says people can change their legal sex.

As a concept, it should never been entertained. It's barking.

I agree

It’s one of the worst laws to be created and I have no idea how adults got there

ifIwerenotanandroid · 05/05/2024 12:23

@DameMaud 'The sense of hope at the prospect of a change of government feels so dampened for me, despite understanding and feeling the need for it.
Especially as it comes at a time of finally feeling that some sanity in area that had made me feel crazy for so long is being restored.

Because personally, I have no sense of what Labour will do in power, even given the shifts in awareness and debate that have happened in the last year-ish.
But, what I do have, is almost no doubt that we would be in a very different (unfavourable- in terms of gender self-id etc) position if Labour had been in power in the current term.

And that really throws me into a spin.'

100% agree. Thank you for articulating it so perfectly.

Datun · 04/05/2024 15:35

Personally, I'm very suspect over any party that could create a law that says people can change their legal sex.

As a concept, it should never been entertained. It's barking.

Dineasair · 04/05/2024 13:47

MsCheeryble · 04/05/2024 11:42

And how can you vote for a party that has been screwing over women for 14 years and more?

Maybe because they at least seem to at last be recognising what a woman is, and you can’t fight for women’s rights if there is no recognition of what that actually is.

Dineasair · 04/05/2024 13:44

DameMaud · 04/05/2024 01:20

Well, yes, but this has been happening worldwide. So look for a comparator with other countries and their handling of the same societal forces. It's a kind of controlled trial... We can't say how Labour would have responded, but we can get an idea by looking at the response of countries with "left"-ish governments.

Clearly the UK is the world leader on this, by far.

I know this was from a few days ago, posted by necessaryscene.

But I think it is such a significant point that it bears repeating.

We get so lost in arguing about who, in the political parties here, did and said what- in the arc of events since the GRA. But looking at the larger context (beyond the UK) gives a true sense of the powerful tide that is so much bigger than our particular party politics.

I am fascinated, and strangely proud, that more consideration has been enabled here than in most other countries- and has even influenced other countries who are starting to consider, perhaps.

The myriad reasons for why that could be, have been explored across many threads here- and again- often extend beyond party politics (The press, size of country/networks, strong history of feminist activism, cultural traits etc)

Re the politics though:

The sense of hope at the prospect of a change of government feels so dampened for me, despite understanding and feeling the need for it.
Especially as it comes at a time of finally feeling that some sanity in area that had made me feel crazy for so long is being restored.

Because personally, I have no sense of what Labour will do in power, even given the shifts in awareness and debate that have happened in the last year-ish.
But, what I do have, is almost no doubt that we would be in a very different (unfavourable- in terms of gender self-id etc) position if Labour had been in power in the current term.

And that really throws me into a spin.

Edited

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

MsCheeryble · 04/05/2024 12:04

TempestTost · 21/04/2024 02:45

Do you remember why they were voted out in the end?

In both cases their "fixes" were starting to come apart at the seams when they failed to be reelected.

But their successors have only let these problems get worsen, and we have absolutely no reason to believe that anything will change if they were to remain in power.

MsCheeryble · 04/05/2024 11:42

Swashbuckled · 19/04/2024 20:51

@thistimelastweek

I know.

But how can I vote for a party that doesn't recognise what I am? Would it really not be like a turkey voting for Christmas?

And how can you vote for a party that has been screwing over women for 14 years and more?

DameMaud · 04/05/2024 01:20

Well, yes, but this has been happening worldwide. So look for a comparator with other countries and their handling of the same societal forces. It's a kind of controlled trial... We can't say how Labour would have responded, but we can get an idea by looking at the response of countries with "left"-ish governments.

Clearly the UK is the world leader on this, by far.

I know this was from a few days ago, posted by necessaryscene.

But I think it is such a significant point that it bears repeating.

We get so lost in arguing about who, in the political parties here, did and said what- in the arc of events since the GRA. But looking at the larger context (beyond the UK) gives a true sense of the powerful tide that is so much bigger than our particular party politics.

I am fascinated, and strangely proud, that more consideration has been enabled here than in most other countries- and has even influenced other countries who are starting to consider, perhaps.

The myriad reasons for why that could be, have been explored across many threads here- and again- often extend beyond party politics (The press, size of country/networks, strong history of feminist activism, cultural traits etc)

Re the politics though:

The sense of hope at the prospect of a change of government feels so dampened for me, despite understanding and feeling the need for it.
Especially as it comes at a time of finally feeling that some sanity in area that had made me feel crazy for so long is being restored.

Because personally, I have no sense of what Labour will do in power, even given the shifts in awareness and debate that have happened in the last year-ish.
But, what I do have, is almost no doubt that we would be in a very different (unfavourable- in terms of gender self-id etc) position if Labour had been in power in the current term.

And that really throws me into a spin.

Dineasair · 24/04/2024 15:14

localnotail · 21/04/2024 22:02

IF labour were so fucking awful when they were in power all those years ago why amazing Tories done nothing about it in 13 years they have been in power? I repeat - NOTHING. Zilch. They only made it worse. How do you justify that?

I think they kind of slept walked into it and they didn’t want to rock the boat, and a lot of their members were captured too, but they are doing something now. They commissioned the Cass Report and they changed the laws to enable information from the clinics to be gathered. They have also reinstated the need for single sex provision in the NHS so to say they have done nothing is not true. I don’t know who to vote for but one thing I do know, it won’t be either Labour or the Lib Dem’s that’s for sure as none of this would be happening under them, it would be full steam ahead, ignoring women’s objections in the process. Hell will freeze over before I vote for either of them.

Dineasair · 23/04/2024 12:14

localnotail · 23/04/2024 06:42

Could you please link Labour policies confirming this? Form the horse's mouth, so to speak?

Labour still can’t define what a woman is, the Scottish Labour Party voted for both the GRR and the Hate Crime Bill, if you think that Labour in England would be any different then go and look at the interview that @Imnobody4 just posted, where KS talking about women’s sport, didn’t mention the word woman once.

duc748 · 23/04/2024 12:12

Chersfrozenface · 23/04/2024 07:17

Never mind worldwide, look at Wales, and the devolved matters where the Welsh government (Labour, unbroken since there was such a thing) is in control.

Where the Labour government is having to be warned by EHRC that its intention to allow self-identified transwomen to be accounted female in its proposed 50% quota of women on lists of candidates.

And do have a read of its LGBTQ+ Action Plan here
https://www.gov.wales/lgbtq-action-plan-wales

Wales is a great example. No sign of complaint, or adverse word from Starmer for Welsh Labour, who carry on aiming to be SNP-lite. Starmer doesn't want to slap them down publicly. He could, just like he could have slapped the Corbynite LR-M. Both are gold-plated opportunities. But it's crystal clear he doesn't want to criticise the gender industry out loud, and pick a fight with half his party, and lose the student vote. Tories can (and doubtless will) say, if you want to know what a Labour government will look like, look at Wales! 20 mph speed limits!

Snowypeaks · 23/04/2024 08:18

IwantToRetire · 23/04/2024 01:46

Guidance following the Lady Haldane ruling was published by the Scottish Government to clarify the definition of women included trans women with a gender recognition certificate, but not those only intending to acquire one.

I know I said I was going to stop discussing this with you but I don't understand what you are getting at here.

You said upthread that the EHRC advice to the Senedd - that self-ID MCW could not be eligible for its proposed gender equality measure - was in conflict with Haldane. I said it was not, because Haldane says legal sex is not self-ID sex, only certificated sex.
What you posted above confirms what I said.

Did you have some other reason for posting this excerpt?

Snowypeaks · 23/04/2024 07:53

Indeed. We are all crossing our fingers that FWS win the appeal in the Supreme Court and we can get back to sanity.

SinnerBoy · 23/04/2024 07:35

I think this, from Foran's Critic article, is useful:

Single sex and separate sex services:

Service providers are permitted to provide service to the sexes separately or to one sex only. They can do this only if provision is justified by reference to a set of criteria set out in the Equality Act. Central to these criteria are the needs of a given sex.

If sex means legal sex, it is hard to see what that category of persons may need, compared to for example the privacy needs of biological females.

The EHRC concluded that a biological definition of sex would make it simpler to ensure that a women-only changing room or hospital ward were a space for biological women only.

WickedSerious · 23/04/2024 07:31

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 23:27

Just seen this interview with KS - pretty pathetic performance. He needs to up his game if he wants my vote.

https://twitter.com/MrsNickyClark/status/1782513016300326967?t=EPLSc-kYvQ3ghtqLENFV6A&s=19

He's a blob of uselessness.

Chersfrozenface · 23/04/2024 07:17

Never mind worldwide, look at Wales, and the devolved matters where the Welsh government (Labour, unbroken since there was such a thing) is in control.

Where the Labour government is having to be warned by EHRC that its intention to allow self-identified transwomen to be accounted female in its proposed 50% quota of women on lists of candidates.

And do have a read of its LGBTQ+ Action Plan here
https://www.gov.wales/lgbtq-action-plan-wales

EasternStandard · 23/04/2024 06:55

NecessaryScene · 23/04/2024 05:47

Could please I remind you, again, that Labour are not in power, Tories are, and everything that is wrong is wrong because they allow it?

Well, yes, but this has been happening worldwide. So look for a comparator with other countries and their handling of the same societal forces. It's a kind of controlled trial... We can't say how Labour would have responded, but we can get an idea by looking at the response of countries with "left"-ish governments.

Clearly the UK is the world leader on this, by far.

I wouldn't say the government in power was a deciding factor, but the fact they put the self ID thing out for public consultation was rather significant - something that Labour would almost certainly not have done. The Tories did at least stall changes, giving time for women to organise.

They want poor to be proles - thick, uneducated, working hard and dying young.

Really? Is that what you think? That's a level of insight into one's opposition up there with "TERFs want trans kids to die".

And it will lead to being just as unsuccessful in the fight. You need to understand who you're fighting against, not invent parodies.

@localnotail with gender ideology it’s worth looking at other countries as @NecessaryScene posts well

Look at self ID and puberty blockers plus general debate such as the WM debate

localnotail · 23/04/2024 06:42

Dineasair · 22/04/2024 22:32

If Labour gets in it will be a lot worse for women and less safeguarding for kids, they will introduce self Id and put the conversion ban in place despite Cass calling for exploring the reasons first. They will also introduce the Scottish type Hate Crime legislation into England, thereby turning England into the same kind of Authoritarian Dystopia Scotland has just become. Once these policies are introduced it’s very hard to get rid of them.

Could you please link Labour policies confirming this? Form the horse's mouth, so to speak?

NecessaryScene · 23/04/2024 05:47

Could please I remind you, again, that Labour are not in power, Tories are, and everything that is wrong is wrong because they allow it?

Well, yes, but this has been happening worldwide. So look for a comparator with other countries and their handling of the same societal forces. It's a kind of controlled trial... We can't say how Labour would have responded, but we can get an idea by looking at the response of countries with "left"-ish governments.

Clearly the UK is the world leader on this, by far.

I wouldn't say the government in power was a deciding factor, but the fact they put the self ID thing out for public consultation was rather significant - something that Labour would almost certainly not have done. The Tories did at least stall changes, giving time for women to organise.

They want poor to be proles - thick, uneducated, working hard and dying young.

Really? Is that what you think? That's a level of insight into one's opposition up there with "TERFs want trans kids to die".

And it will lead to being just as unsuccessful in the fight. You need to understand who you're fighting against, not invent parodies.

IwantToRetire · 23/04/2024 01:46

Guidance following the Lady Haldane ruling was published by the Scottish Government to clarify the definition of women included trans women with a gender recognition certificate, but not those only intending to acquire one.

OP posts:
Snowypeaks · 23/04/2024 01:40

I don't think that is correct but I don't think it's worth us continuing the discussion. Neither of us are lawyers.

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 23:57

Up until Haldane no-one questioned that sex meant bio sex in the EA. It's Haldane's novel interpretation which has created the uncertainty about women's single sex spaces.

Sorry the ruling was exactly the reverse. Haldance merely gave a ruling in line with how the law had been operating. In no way was it "novel".

The purpose of the court case was to try and get a judge to reverse how the law has been operating.

And it is because she confirmed that "for all purposes" TW with a GRC are "legal women" that WFS have gone to appeal. To try and get a legal ruling that it doesn't mean that.

This has been spelt out on many threads.

And so as not to have to go through this again, Haldane also confirmed that the SSE exist to provide "where justifiable" that same sex (biological) services can be provided.

In fact Nicola Sturgeon was cock a hoop with this ruling because she felt she could turn round and say to (you silly terf) women, there you see there is nothing to worry about, when needed you can have your biological sex services..

In fact a lot of women wondered why FWS spent money on this court case because it has been settled in practice for years.

It would be highly unusual for a lone Judge to say to all their colleagues, sorry you have all been wrong for how ever many years it was, and I am going to spell out how it should be.

However, I am not sure whether a Judicial Review could then rule that in fact for how ever many years it is, everybody (apart from a few terfs) have been mis reading the GRA / EA interaction and sex in the EA means biological sex.

This is why most women were saying what we need is to clarify that EA sex means biological sex.

And as we know from the debate following the 2 petitions, this change to the EA will be opposed by TRAs and their lackeys (Labour Party MPs) because it means that in law they are never actually women, even if only as "legal women".

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 23:27

Just seen this interview with KS - pretty pathetic performance. He needs to up his game if he wants my vote.

https://twitter.com/MrsNickyClark/status/1782513016300326967?t=EPLSc-kYvQ3ghtqLENFV6A&s=19

https://twitter.com/MrsNickyClark/status/1782513016300326967?s=19&t=EPLSc-kYvQ3ghtqLENFV6A

Dineasair · 22/04/2024 22:32

localnotail · 22/04/2024 20:42

Could please I remind you, again, that Labour are not in power, Tories are, and everything that is wrong is wrong because they allow it? TORIES ALLOWED THIS. THEY GOT US TO THIS POINT WHERE WE ARE SEEING WOMEN REDUCED TO "HUMANS WITH VAGINAS".

I'm not saying Labour is great - but two main parties are not very different in their attitude to trans issues, to them its not a big deal (believe me) and they will go with whatever will win votes. However, with Labour there is a chance the ruling classes will pause to think of poor, disabled, underprivileged - if only for a while, to make their life a bit better... With Tories, this will never, ever happen. They want poor to be proles - thick, uneducated, working hard and dying young. So its up to you, what kind of shit you want to rule you. Really bad one or slightly better one...

If Labour gets in it will be a lot worse for women and less safeguarding for kids, they will introduce self Id and put the conversion ban in place despite Cass calling for exploring the reasons first. They will also introduce the Scottish type Hate Crime legislation into England, thereby turning England into the same kind of Authoritarian Dystopia Scotland has just become. Once these policies are introduced it’s very hard to get rid of them.

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