Gendered brains

Gawdy lord, really? I have it too, and I'm fine people calling me a tomboy (or not-girly girl, whatever), but bloody hell, no I'm not a dude. Some people don't understand how insulting that is.

@1plus1equalswindow I have that longer ring finger and it is supposed to be due to exposure to testosterone in the womb so women who have that are more likely to have better special awareness and are potentially less likely to develop dementia. There is some truth to that but I've seen some people online say that women who have it are actually men, which is bollocks.

If they can't tell what sex a brain is from scans, it means they're not using the right test to find out the sex of the person. It's bollocks.

There're much easier and more reliable ways of telling someone's sex.... 🤔

I remember something about if your ring finger is longer than your pointer finger, then you have more testosterone and will more likely like "boyish" things.

So I kinda think you're over thinking it. Biology will decide for itself.

My Dd has had part of her brain removed. All the tests she had prior, they could not have known her sex as I asked the neurologists and surgeons. You can’t tell on a scan. They can make a guess but it’s mainly based on size (edit: this is for adults, with male head size being on average bigger). The part she has had removed is supposedly very ‘girly’ according to lots of pseudoscience. She has not changed sex. Her interests and personality have stayed the same. So be careful about all this brain science stuff. It sounds intriguing but I know (from traumatic experience) a lot of it is nonsense.

I was born in the sixties and wore whatever my mum could makeover from jumble bargains. Various colours, some dresses, some skirts but I wasn’t a pink and frilly girl and as soon as I could decide for myself I lived in trousers, jeans or jods (once I finally saved up for them) because all my free time was spent working at the local stables to be with the horses.
None of my friends were ever “girly” according to the stereotype so presumably we should all have been transed.

I am just so wary of saying things are gendered in that way because everyone has a mix of interests and behaviours so it doesn't really matter and isn't relevant to your sex, we can be into all sorts and have all sort of aptitude's and talents but it doesn't mean out brains are different to our bodies.

I love action movies and science fiction, I love astronomy and even built my own telescope all of which are considered more masculine interests but I also love skincare, make up, clothes and rarely wear trousers.

My Dh is the most manly of men and engineer into sports and beer but he also loves the ballet and I've seen him shed tears at the beauty of wonderful performance, he must be fem brained, or not because that's all reductive, sexist bollocks in my opinion.

So you have a lot of variety in place in terms of what they see between you and your DH. You can just build on that. You haven’t consciously avoided girl stuff- you didn’t need to, society does it for you!

I agree with some of what thingybob says, despite all my care and attention to providing dolls and so on, my boys banged their bricks together and shouted brrm brrm while their female friends talked to the bricks and held tea parties for them.

We do need to model the stuff they don’t learn naturally though - so set up a tea party for the teddies, and encourage the girl throw the ball out of the window to see how high it bounces.

It’s about providing balance and addressing skill deficits rather than limiting choices.

Eg. Boys develop fine motor skills later, so need more fine motor skills than they’d freely choose- play dough, colouring, bead threading. Girls tend to do more of it because they find it easier and the gap gets bigger so girls end up being better at writing.

Give her a range of options and let her make her own choices.

Let her know through life that all choices of hobbies, work, interests are open to her.

Then let her decide what she wants to do.

I'll just leave this here

Differences in gender role behaviours are
apparent in pre-school, when children start to
show gender stereotyped behaviour in their
play. Around this time, they seek to play with
same-sex peers.

Toy choice has been extensively studied.
Researchers classify toys into those that are
typically preferred by boys (for example, cars
and trucks) and those that are typically preferred
by girls (for example, dolls). A systematic review
(Davis & Hines, 2020) demonstrated that these
differences in toy choice are very large.

Like biological characteristics such as
height, there is a large overlap in gender role
behaviours. This variability in gender role
expression exists from an early age (some
girls exhibit behaviours that are traditionally
perceived as more masculine, and some boys
exhibit behaviours that are perceived as more
feminine).

A common assumption is that toy choice
and other gender role behaviours are solely
a result of social influences; for example, that
boys will only be given trucks and girls will
only be given dolls to play with. Although this
is partially true, there is evidence for prenatal
and postnatal hormonal influence on these
behaviours.

Sex differences in the brain emerge in
the second half of pregnancy. There is strong
evidence from animal studies that these
changes are driven by the presence or absence
of testosterone and have a long-term effect on
sex-typed development (Bakker, 2014).

All three of the human characteristics
that show particularly large sex differences
(childhood sex-typed play, sexual orientation
and gender identity) have been found to relate
to early testosterone exposure.

Sex-typed play has been studied more
extensively than any other human behaviour
in this context, and at least 10 independent
research groups have reported a link to prenatal
testosterone exposure (Hines, 2015)

I do think that we (as a society) tend to focus on girls a lot, regarding maximising their potential to become engineers, scientists and mathematicians but forget that fostering and allowing space for caring, nurturing and gentle play in boys is important too.

I could not agree with this more. It angers me that stereotypically male traits are prized above stereotypically female traits. I think the world would be a better place if everyone were pushed more towards being stereotypically female than stereotypically male.

I do sometimes worry that the feminine is easily coded as lesser and all gender-neutral everything all the time can be absorbed by small brains as girly-is-bad?

There has to a sweet spot somewhere!

There's an interesting episode of "Gender: A Wider Lens" on this (the episode is called stereotypes, I think it's podcast number 34 or thereabouts). Basically on the nature vs. nurture of personality, especially "gendered" personality.

I was a complete tomboy but I still didn't enjoy rough and tumble type play, I hated dolls with a passion but I loved stuffed animals. I've also always wanted kids and felt very maternal despite retaining all my so-called "gender non conforming" traits 😂.

My 2.5 year old daughter is a complete girly girl in her dress style, but I suspect this is because of all the gendered media and family buying her pink frilly clothes and that's what she's decided she likes. I don't really care too much because both myself and our childminder are very much into the non-gendered, child-led play thing so I do believe the people she spends most of her time with aren't putting her into any kind of box, at least not consciously!

I do think that we (as a society) tend to focus on girls a lot, regarding maximising their potential to become engineers, scientists and mathematicians but forget that fostering and allowing space for caring, nurturing and gentle play in boys is important too.

I think It’s really important to protect the self esteem of naturally GNC kids. It’s shitty when you don’t fit in without all the hyper pink and blue bullshit on top.

Oh, and I used to think single sex education was a bit old fashioned but my daughter is now at a girls high school, mostly her choice but I really liked the idea of her being somewhere where EVERY subject is a girls subject, and girls are top (and bottom!) of every class.

There were only three girls in my double science GCSE class because the majority of the girls took single science and food science/home economics (this was right at the start of GCSEs so late 80s/early 90s).

The terfery of the last few years has really made me value single sex spaces and rethink single sex education (especially until we get a handle on sexual assault in schools/early age hardcore porn exposure, as boys are overwhelmingly the perps in these cases).

Just for clarity, I think children’s personalities win out but the messaging does have an impact, even if only subtle. Your child may well bust all the stereotypes because of their personality but gendered expectations have still been enforced in wider society and in some homes those dc will have very restricted choices. Better we all challenge it for the sake of all the kids.

When I was pregnant with my eldest I only bought boy stereotype clothes because that’s what I wore myself at the time (baggy jeans, check shirts, band T shirts). I hadn’t found out the sex at a scan (hospital policy at the time) and didn’t really think about anything beyond my own taste. When I laundered it all prior to my due date my elderly nanna helped me and she asked
me what I would do if it was a girl?

I stared at her, she stared back and then we both cracked up. I told her if she really wanted to she could buy her granddaughter a pink hat to wear with the clothes I already had.

Eldest was a boy and is in his mid 20s now. He has long hair in a is surfer/skater kinda way and his favourite colours to wear are pink and purple, ‘boy’ stereotype shapes in ‘girl’ stereotype colours.

No hand me downs between my kids because they have a big age gap but when my daughter was born I quite liked dressing her the opposite to her big brother, so ‘girl’ clothes in ‘boy’ colours (eg blue dresses).
I bought a lot of basic t shirt material H&M dresses that had matching leggings because that was what she was most comfortable in, especially when she was sick and had tubes and ports etc. Plus they were in soft fabrics and worked as pyjamas.

Now she’s in the diddy goth phase and I HATE it (not a fan of black) but I know I have to pick my battles so if it’s weather and occasion appropriate and not a waste of the family budget I try and step back a bit (but not all the way because teens look for boundaries to push against and if they don’t find them they escalate!)

The female teen in our family with gender distress (wavers between NB and transman) grew up in a very rigid family (mum and stepdad are Eastern European so slightly different set of stereotypes) and she was never allowed anything from the ‘boys section’ which seems utterly daft to me.

My daughter has always had jeans from the boy section (bigger pockets!) and often shoes too.

I really do think the lack of sturdy shoes is a problem for girls especially in primary school - not all girls want to play playground football but most want to use the climbing frame and boys school shoes are much more technical, supportive and robust than the girl equivalent from the same shops (which have been largely patent Mary Janes with thin straps over the last ten years or so).

it’s strange to me that as the world of work has opened up to women and women are more in control of family size (and able to chose to have no children at all) that the accoutrements of childhood have become
MORE gendered. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or ‘owt, just a marketing thing to minimise hand me downs but it’s an interesting phenomena to observe.

Dress her in what you like while she doesn't have an opinion. That will soon change!

My daughter wore a range of clothes for her first 4 years then she was vehemently anti anything 'girly'. I used to take her to dress up days at school in Batman outfits because she wouldn't want to be a princess, that's too boring.

She's autistic and she then went through her I want to be a boy phase where she literally wore boys clothes every day for years. She was always mistaken for a boy and she started playing on a boys cricket team. This lasted for years. We had the trans querying phase and I was persistent with the 'no wrong way to be a girl' thing and guess what, now post puberty she's still not in dresses BUT she's wearing girls cut clothes has grown her hair long etc and no longer thinks she's a boy. She still plays cricket with the same boys she's always played with.

I know this wasn't the purpose of your post but I wouldn't overthink it. Ultimately they will wear what they want. When my daughter only wore boys clothes someone on here suggested she say 'they're not boys clothes they're my clothes'. I thought that was brilliant.

look at it in an ungendered way-

Always Dress the child for the occasion- practical trouser type clothes for scrambling around. More formal clothes for fancy situations.

Everyone needs to contain their behaviour in fancy situations- no ‘boys will be boys’. If it’s a children’s party in a play centre jeans are better that dresses.

Choose bold colourful and neutral for both, and check the messaging- she can be ‘daddy’s little scientist’ too. No one should be mummy’s little monster.

You have already set up gendered behaviour by not having prams and dolls for your son. He has been shown really clearly that babies are for girls.
You need to address that quite powerfully by buying her toy tools, toy dr sets etc. I don’t know how old he is for you to redress it with him.

I’m depressed we’re needing to do this. We’ve been working on it since the 60s, were doing Well in the 70s, I had my boys in the 90s and they tried on my shoes, had handbags and pushchairs, as well as trucks and Lego.

What’s your home dynamic like? Does dad wield a vacuum as well as a drill? Are you doing DIY?

So with clothes specifically, I guess what I'm asking is, is there any harm in dressing her in pretty stuff when she's too little to really care what she is wearing - as long as it is still practical and not impeding her physical movement in a way that "boys' clothes" wouldn't, or am I ingraining stereotypes even by doing that?

Basically, yes, you are ingraining stereotypes and you need to be honest with yourself about that. It doesn't mean you need to stop doing it, but it's ridiculous to pretend that you aren't dressing her in certain clothes just because she's a girl, and that will definitely be sending a subtle message to both your son and daughter about "boys things" and "girls things".

(gives me the rage that even clothing cuts are different according to sex at preschool age - tight t-shirts and cap sleeves for girls, trousers tight on the thigh with a bootcut?! Standard straight jeans for boys. And what's with the fucking SHOULDERS all stupid and puffy for girls and normal for boys)

Absolutely this, it's madness. I went looking for trousers for a boy and all the colours he liked had frills or bows on the pockets or were leggings.

Someone bought him a dinosaur tshirt without realising it had puffy shoulders.

I think you do have to accept that you have already contributed to your children's idea of gender and hold your hands up to that fact: you dress your daughter, but not your son, in pink and flowery clothing; you say you put your daughter in dresses because she looks adorable in them, but I'm sure your son would, too! Unfortunately, I don't know a single heterosexual parent who doesn't in some way impose gender stereotypes on their children, even those parents would describe themselves as being totally against gender stereotypes.

I'm not having a go at you, I just think that parents need to really critically examine their own behaviour and how they may be imposing gender stereotypes on babies who, let's face it, really couldn't give a fuck what colour they are wearing as long as their clothes are comfortable, or what toys they are playing with as long as they can chew them.

Incidentally, my daughter is also usually mistaken for a boy as I mostly dress her in blue. It never bothers me, except in the case of one old woman, who was particularly insistent that my then-4-week-old baby must be a boy, because, "Her blanket is blue!" I was sleep deprived and snapped, "Yes, but she has a vagina," which shut her up!

It seems to me you are doing a pretty good job already!

We all live in a gendered society and we all have to figure out sex and gender. And in the process, children can be extremely gender conforming, extremely gender non-conforming, and gender neutral, and sometimes all at the same time in different ways. When my DC was in primary school, the teacher ran a dance class after school. Several of DC's male schoolfriends would go dancing and then dash off to rugby practice afterwards.

Plus, what you do as a child doesn't pre-determine how you grow up. The frilly flouncy frock I demanded as an eight year old didn't stop me getting a PhD in a techie subject or spending my twenties in Tshirts and jeans. (And let's set aside the skin-tight pencil skirt and the pink dungarees I tried in my teens, both of which were very impractical for different reasons!) And I know that women can be just as technically competent as men whether they wear smart heels and make-up or flat shoes and bare face.

So I would just try to offer options, support your children's choices and explorations and nudge them towards reality *no you can't be a mum when you grow up but dad still look after the baby". And not close off options for the future.

Having said all that, at the moment our society is saturated with the idea that letting someone change their gender identity and then change their body to match is the solution to all sorts of problems. It's not easy to counter those beliefs when so many people still promote them without question. But they are starting to be challenged and I am hoping that these ideas will fade away, hopefully before your children are really old enough to put themselves at risk.

I think a certain amount of hands-offness is helpful in a lot of child-rearing.

I also think the brain being influenced in it's developmental pathway thing is true but often understood in a somewhat surface way. Sure, maybe it's things like toys at the nursery. But it's also real things, like the experience of being a brain developing in a female rather than male body, physically. Even the social parts of the male or female experience aren't just arbitrary. Some social norms and roles reflect real differences in experience or common differences in temperament.

I think just offering kids lots of options to reflect their interests and being positive about them, whether they are "girly" girls or something else, is fine.

Most kids do go through a period of being more rigid about gender norms like clothes, or interests like princesses or superheros or whatever. It's normal, by the time they are 10 they have pretty much all figured out that most of this stuff is conventional rather than innate. They go through similar concrete thinking about other things in childhood. Then you often get a period of reflexive rebellion which is also conventional (not that they will admit that.)