Oh dear

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/faqs

Thepartnersdesk
I'd perhaps try turning it around. If TWAW then TMAM. So if your son plays a sport, say rugby, he'd genuinely be happy to launch his full body weight at and tackle a trans man? No part of his brain would say 'this doesn't seem right'?

Actually Rugby is a really good example to give, because World Rugby have been good on this issue, probably because Rugby is known not just as a contact sport, but a collision sport and they can see the liability for female players.

World Rugby do not allow biological males to compete with females, even if those males suppress their testosterone, and they acknowledge that it doesn't undo the many advantages of male puberty.

OP if your son is interested in Rugby you could show him the trangender guidelines - they use all the annoying terms like cisgender and assigned at birth, so he might not reject it completely as being terfy.

I’m really sorry for you, OP. Your dismay and astonishment and disappointment come across strongly, especially since your son has spent his life in an ‘atypically- gendered role household’.

This kept me awake for quite a long time last night; I couldn’t quite imagine how two men could actually deny their own biological experience to the face of the prime provider of that experience. Never mind his sexual preferences (male, female or any permutation thererof) , your son couldn’t have been conceived by or born from a trans woman. He is denying the gift of life which you gave him, and that is base.

When is he going to find a home of his own and support himself ? Instead of biting the hand that feeds him ( and the breast that suckled).

I am in à very similar situation. I've just stopped talking about it at all. I know my husband thinks I'm an idiot.

Flipping it a bit to transmen can be helpful; ask them why it may not be appropriate to house a trans man in a male prison?

Is it appropriate for a transman to join a gay dating site?

Why aren't there loads of transmen and transmen doing well in sport?

Isn't it actually way more homophobic to believe that an effeminate male is not a real man?

I'm sorry you raised a child who can't think beyond the end of his nose.

I think considering the trans man aspect is useful for those males who see the fears of women as hysterical and file in the 'it never happens'

I hope you stressed the problem that TWAW is homophobic, sexist and often racist.

If not, do it, THEN see their faces.

I've never understood how pretending TWAW and pretending the journey to get there (for the purpose of argument) didn't happen is being kind.

How does that help other poor gender confused people to just say x (who is a man) is now just a run if the mill woman. And then delete all 'history' for fear of misgendering. Even if you support this movement entirely and are happy to ignore women's rights and protections, I can't square that circle.

I'd perhaps try turning it around. If TWAW then TMAM. So if your son plays a sport, say rugby, he'd genuinely be happy to launch his full body weight at and tackle a trans man? No part of his brain would say 'this doesn't seem right'?

Similarly if your niece/god daughter decides she is a man, your husband would see absolutely no issue with that person sitting in the bath after the game with a load of men while she has in tact female parts. He wouldn't think for a second that might be problematic for her or that it might get the wrong kind of attention.

Challenge on scenarios and see how they manage their thinking

Bravo op! Stand your ground and educate those men in your household.

This is actually quite promising because it tells you that your son is simply repeating what he has read on SM, without any critical thinking. Many young people are like this, it is their culture, one we, thankfully, never had to contend with.

As an educated intelligent young person if he could apply some critical thinking, gently prompted by you, he will see where his accusations against you (and therefore any other person who states facts about biological sex) don’t add up.

I don't even think it's a case of being "past the point of being kind".

It is, and always has been, about who you are choosing to be kind to.

In order to be kind to trans women who want to compete in women's sports, you have to be actively unkind towards the female athletes competing in those events. You have to say, "Yes, we know you've spent years training really hard to get to the level you're currently at, and yes we know that allowing a male athlete to compete in your category means one of you won't qualify at all and those who do will now have a much reduced chance of winning through no fault of your own. But we need to be kind to this person who has a male body but believes they identify as one of you."

In order to be kind to trans women who want to use women's toilets and changing rooms, you have to be actively unkind to all the women who need or would prefer these spaces to remain single sex. You have to say, "Yes, we know that you don't feel comfortable getting changed in front of a stranger with a penis. Yes, we know that it means some of you will no longer be able to use these spaces due to your religious beliefs. Yes, we know that this will be traumatic for some of you who have been raped or sexually assaulted. Yes, we know it increases the risk of you actually being raped or sexually assaulted because literally any man will be able to enter these spaces simply by saying that he is a woman, there is no way of checking whether they are a real trans woman or not. Yes, we know there is no way of checking whether someone has had their penis removed or not before they enter that space. But we need to be kind to a small number of people with gender dysphoria who feel unable to use these spaces alongside their own sex, which means they must have free access to your spaces because they believe they identify as one of you, which means we cannot gatekeep access to your spaces at all."

You can do this with every example.

If you do it with rape crisis groups, it's not even that in order to be kind to trans women who have been raped we need to make sure they have access to appropriate rape crisis groups. (Nobody is saying they should be denied that.) It's that single sex rape crisis groups for female rape survivors cannot be allowed to exist because their very existence might hurt the feelings of unidentified trans people who may or may not have been raped themselves.

Spell out a few of these examples of what being kind to trans people means you have to do to women, and ask why only this one group is deserving of our kindness.

Because it's not actually kind and never has been. At best it is misguided, at worst it is misogynistic and cruel.

OP, rather than jumping straight into the (many, valid) reasons that "Twaw" hurts women, could you start by just asking "Do you think men and women actually think really differently then?"

The followup depends on their answer: if "yes", ask them how, maybe get some examples. Hopefully just the act of saying this stuff out loud means they will start to feel less certain by themselves as they realise they are making pretty sexist comments, but if not you can always point it out to them.

If "no" then the next question is of course "well if being a woman isn't about how someone thinks, what is it that makes a TW a woman?" Again, the idea is not to make arguments to them as that's likely to make them more entrenched, it's to get them thinking properly so they come up with the flaws all by themselves.

This was the absolute burn my TWAW son just couldn't take.

He is straight, and walked right into my seemingly innocent question about whether he would consider dating a TW. His face!

Yeah, so you don't actually believe TWAW, do you? Didn't think so. Come back and we can talk when you have some courage in your convictions.

He hasn't challenged my TERFing since.

I have not heard this!!! Love it 😁😁

So leave him. He’s a woman hater. You can’t believe that a fully grown man with a penis and balls miraculously becomes a woman just because “they said so”.

you also can’t believe a fully grown man with penis and balls suddenly becomes no threat to women because “they said so”.

if that were the case, ask your husband how he’d feel about you sharing a hotel room with a non trans man who “says” he’s no threat?

I mean what male bodied person is going to ADMIT they’re a danger to women? Hmmm I’d bet none! So why would a trans woman admit they’re a danger to women? They wouldn’t. We have to guard ourselves simply because of the “having of a male body” - all transwomen HAVE A MALE BODY! (I can assume he doesn’t believe that women who have mastectomies or hysterectomies suddenly become male bodied, right? Or does he now think AngelinaJolie is a man because she had to have her breasts removed?)

and guess what?! I was spiked and attempted rape BY A TRANSWOMAN. So it does happen. And every little twat out there arguing for no reason that transwomen are no threat - well trust me, i was attacked and under threat. But apparently I don’t matter…because I’m a woman, ironically!

your husband is a spineless, sexiest pig who will choose some random fictional man who declares he’s a woman over an actual woman - his wife.

It wasn’t staged. It went viral, and was an exercise in developing critical thinking by the lecturer/tutor in his university students.

The backlash from TRAs was unbelievable and vicious.

This first paragraph reminds me of a quote I saw online;

Women: We don't actually exist just to please men.

Men: What is this feminazi bullshit?

Solidarity with you OP. Could you have a conversation with your son about what he imagines a female bodied person's life experiences might encompass? How much thought would he say he has given to, for instance, a woman's feelings about the rape culture we live in?

Oscar de la Renta said to his runway models "walk like you have three men walking behind you". He thought it meant walk sexily and provocatively. Women think it means run.

Men believe that TWAW because they listen to men more than they listen to women. This says everything you need to know. Despite their "woke" credentials they are subconsciously listening to the men in the room.

Id ask them how they'd feel if they walked into a bathroom alone and a gang of young males were in there. Men will never see women as a threat but I would imagine most would feel at least slightly intimidated by a group of potentially threatening young males.

Not quite the same I know but the only way I can think to describe that uncomfortable, unsettling feeling most women will experience when faced with a potential threat - even if that threat turns out to be totally benign.

A man may not feel uneasy if another man is walking behind him on a dark street but I bet many would if a gang of rowdy young men were. You need* them to understand that uneasy feeling for them to get why women want and need their own spaces

OFC most men will go through their lives without ever being hassled by a gang of males, yet most women have experienced some sort of unwanted sexual contact from a man so their feelings of unease are even more justified!

• if you cba that is - im so tired of this shit I couldn't tolerate their privileged bullshit!

Tell your son you now identify as a man. And as a man you will no longer be doing any cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry or any other “woman work” for him.

I think this might have been the case for DH who just didn't completely get it until he got an email from work on a Sunday informing him that Ben was now Bella (she/her) and there would be training to do. He went down some interesting rabbit holes in the following few weeks. I think he wouldn't even have peaked at that point if I hadn't forwarded him a Debbie Hayton article a few month earlier, figuring that he was only ever going to listen to a bloke.

Ds1 is a lost cause, in with his furry autistic online friends.

He's been interviewed alot since.
Here's a link to Andrew Doyle substack and interview:

https://andrewdoyle.substack.com/p/to-embrace-the-pursuit-of-truth