Miriam Cates/National Conservatives conference

My point is that there are aspects of NatC thinking that fits Gove's definition of terrorism.

If someone finds it shameful to associate with the Far Right, might they be better off not associating with them?

Exactly. It's a real pity we can't discuss rationally instead of this tribalism. I'm just so tired of it.

And your point is?

Yes, you don't agree with the conference being shut down just with shaming anyone who attends. Why not wait and actually watch the speeches with an open mind.

Children are already banned from smoking and purchasing tobacco products. This law creates a cohort of adults who are banned from purchasing tobacco products whilst other adults are allowed to do so.

Whilst I can see that ultimately this is likely to improve health outcomes over many decades it's a very nanny state/totalitarian way of doing it. So I understand why many MPs have reservations about the removal of liberty for some adults and not not others. Their objection is unlikely to be because they don't care about the ill effects of smoking.

At it's core it's an argument about how much freedom people are willing to trade for protection and the risk that the same logic will be applied to other things.

It's quite hard to define the Conservative ethos. I think it's a smoking Christian who doesn't want women in challenging employment but then also have No state dependence while maintaining your comphet badge with your husband that you can't divorce freely

There are certainly aspects of NatC views that fit Gove's definition.

The problem some Conservatives will have with the smoking ban is that it is state interference, and they want to see a small state.

Others might wonder if it will work. Prohibition was not a great success in America. There is a risk that requiring people to go to a black market, will encourage criminality and risk cigarettes becoming a gateway to other drugs. Probably other reasons as well.

The argument: cigarettes are bad therefore a cigarette ban is good, will be seen as some as over simplistic, and risks unintended consequences.

The next step…Cates did not vote for a cigarette ban so is therefore a bad person whose views on sex and gender and child safeguarding should be ignored, is plain silly.

It seems like only yesterday AdamRyan was railing against Michael Gove widening the definition of terrorism.

Farage and Braverman must be furious that the reporting has been about the conference being shut down rather than their speeches.

I doubt it, I think for Farage in particular this plays right into his hands.

And in other (kept very quiet) news, Yiannis Varoufakis has been banned from Germany. The ban covers any political activity -- even Zoom meetings.

See how this works, AdamRyan? See what happens? Suddenly, it's not so funny to go on about freezepeach anymore, is it?

I should have thought a smoker may well be more aware than a non-smoker of the harms of smoking and the importance of never starting given the difficulties of quitting.

I seem to remember Clarke having a whisky and a cigar in the Commons when he delivered the Budget! The attitudes to smoking have changed beyond all recognition in the last 30 years. Anti smoking used to be pretty crankish

@OldCrone yes the smoking ban was certainly considered left wing when Jacinda Ardern implemented a similar law in New Zealand. And Clarke who is being described as way to the left of the current party in this thread is against the ban and was a chair of a tobacco company. So it's not simple, but all I know is I'll try to avoid sharing a platform with Ken Clarke as then I would simultaneously be left and right, which effectively would make me wide.

I thought it unpleasant when farmers protesting in the UK Canada, Germany were labelled far right activists. There's definitely an agenda there.

Cates is one of those people who is full of cant re freedoms but then is all for regulating personal freedoms for women, cf abortion limits, no fault divorce, paid childcare. To say she is antediluvian in her own party is putting it mildly.

the Conservatives have veered suddenly to the right

And yet with the smoking ban, they have taken a Labour policy and pushed it through parliament with opposition support despite many tories abstaining or voting against it.

Do you view the smoking ban as a left-wing or right-wing policy?

No, I said that Wes Streeting said that the bill was un-Conservative. This BBC report says that several Tory MPs have also said that the bill is un-Conservative.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68816566

I agree entirely with this.