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Abhannmor · 17/04/2024 13:44

So sorry @hazandduck . What a dreadful experience. My own troubles were all online. I was piled on and booted from a couple of groups for supporting JK too.

Personally I have nothing to lose. But afterwards I had a panic attack about the possible bad consequences for my adult children who work in arts and media. So I changed my settings , blocked a bunch of people - and sites. Deleted Reddit and Twitter. Disabled FB. What strange times we live in.

💐

Original poster
BonfireLady · 17/04/2024 13:34

PoochiesPinkEars · 17/04/2024 13:09

@hazandduck no one should have to go through any of that just for raising legitimate concerns. So sorry to hear of your experiences. 💐

It sounds truly awful. Terrifying. 💐💐
And to think that the media organisations are still saying it's "both sides". That's not true and it's not the story.

Massive kudos to you and anyone else who has been through experiences like this. Hopefully the (im)balance will be addressed on the fallacy of "both sides" in the media at some point too.

I'm aware that I was a "middle ground"** style poster right from the start (and still generally am pretty "neutral" in tone most of the time, despite how angry I feel) and I definitely learned lots along the way from people who knew far more than I did - but at no point did I ever think it was "easy" (looking at you Kirsty Allsopp) to have these debates, at no point did I ever say people should only engage nicely (I valued all voices and all styles) and at no point did I ever, ever think that this was a "both sides" thing.

** For clarity, I never advocated for just a few (transwo)men in women's toilets/sports etc. I just valued listening to all sides, both IRL and online, so that I understood more about the issue. That was my "middle ground": how do we find a way forward where people who believe that we all have a gender identity, or pretend to believe this, can live alongside those of us who don't? When the red line is that their belief is never imposed on others in any way.

OP posts:
PoochiesPinkEars · 17/04/2024 13:09

@hazandduck no one should have to go through any of that just for raising legitimate concerns. So sorry to hear of your experiences. 💐

hazandduck · 17/04/2024 12:22

heathspeedwell · 16/04/2024 09:42

This really does feel like an historical turning point. I just wanted to say a huge thank you to Justine and everyone at Mumsnet who allowed this debate to go ahead. I genuinely think Mumsnet has played a huge part in allowing women to speak out about the harms being done to children. It has helped the UK to be a world leader in protecting thousands of vulnerable young people from this dangerous ideology.

Also wanted to say thanks to LangCleg. If anyone knows her in real life then I hope she knows what a massive, massive difference she made.

I have no qualms admitting that I sat watching the debate yesterday (finally had time to watch it on YouTube) with tears running down my face, thinking of the many years I’ve followed threads on here, LangCleg, Datun et al and thinking of the times I’ve had shit thrown at me just for daring to question let alone fully admit my GC position…I once posted on Instagram about standing with JK Rowling, defending her, and I received a slew of crap from TRAs telling me I had blood on my hands, and ended up being unable to post on there for a whole year. I didn’t post any hate that was literally all I posted.

I posted on here a couple of years ago about a girl who tried to attack me when I said I wouldn’t affirm if my child claimed to be trapped in the wrong body, I’d support and seek counselling for them, she went ballistic this was in real life it was terrifying.

I’ve shamefully bitten my tongue a fair bit - as they said in the House yesterday - there has been a ‘chilling effect’ and it’s been every where!

I’m so so thankful for everyone who has persisted at great personal cost and to all the posters making me feel like there is a safe space to hold these views and my sanity. I’ve honestly doubted myself thinking at times am I the baddie?? Am I on the wrong side?? But thank you everyone who has helped me maintain and uphold the truth I always knew would out.

Abhannmor · 17/04/2024 12:13

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2024 20:58

And also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam)—also known as the false compromise, argument from middle ground, fallacy of gray, middle ground fallacy, or golden mean fallacy[1]—is the fallacy that the truth is always in the middle of two opposites.[2] It does not necessarily suggest that an argument for the middle solution or for a compromise is always fallacious, but rather applies primarily in cases where such a position is ill-informed, unfeasible, or impossible, or where an argument is incorrectly made that a position is correct simply because it is in the middle.[3][4]

An example of an argument to moderation would be considering two statements about the colour of the sky on Earth during the day – one claiming, correctly, that the sky is blue, and another claiming that it is yellow – and incorrectly concluding that the sky is the intermediate colour, green.[5]

Thanks for that @ArabellaScott . Very interesting and informative!

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 11:42

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 10:18

I'm northern and middle class.

Personally I do think there is a cultural difference even between north and south middle class that's not socio-economic.

There is cultural pressure to conform and be kind in the south due to politics in a way that's different to the north. Being blunt and to the point is accepted in a way that's not the same. In the south it's more about being polite.

I can't even quite put my finger on it and explain it. It's subtle.

But interesting it's being picked up on.

Show quote history

Northerners are less effusive and performative in my experience.

I think it can be hard to gauge the subtle differences in social cues - divided by a common language, to appropriate the expression used to describe tensions between US English/UK English.

Original poster
BonfireLady · 17/04/2024 11:32

Finally managed to catch up on all the brilliant comments.
@Karensalright I second the rollcall of MN heroes and will add another of my own: RebelliousCow.
Both during my initial learning journey and now still. Also I value the other parents who are caught up in this. And to finish the personal note, I am right on the edge of my own mental health on this but thankfully I'm on it and have some strategies.. and a wonderful counsellor and (often but not always) wonderful husband.

More importantly, some key thoughts and reflections on the topic in hand:

  1. The BBC focus sounds great. Yes, they've been awful on this but they can break this scandal if they want to. Hopefully they can either want to want to or be helped to want to.
  2. Re CAMHS we've had a very difficult journey but we're finally getting somewhere. I'm meeting with the management team soon and my MP is supporting me (I've said this on other threads but relevant here to). My goal is to secure an approach that will scale. My daughter remains under their care and they have also done some great stuff (with some heavy pushing) to signpost what is needed in her EHCP. Forgive me, I forgot to note down the username but I fully agree with the poster who said that having an EHCP is the most important thing here for autistic children. It doesn't help with healthcare but it's very significant in school.
  3. schools. Yes, let's push hard to get the enforced belief in gender identity out of schools. I fully agree with the suggestion for every parent to use the Cass Report to do this as much as possible
  4. 🚨 That question from Mishal Husain to Chris Whitty was gold. This is the type of journalism we need from you BBC senior management if you're reading this. Who knows, you might be. Mishal Husain: "These were NHS prescriptions to children. The fact that they were ever allowed.. is it a failure? Did you ever, at any stage, think 'I should be stepping in on this because I'm not sure what the evidence base is?'" I don't want Chris Whitty holding solely to account on this, he's not. But as Chief Medical Officer, residing over a national experiment on thousands of children, it's a good place to start covering this scandal. Inquiry. Now. Media coverage. Now.
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 11:06

Some time ago Lisa Muggeridge said something along the lines of Owen Jones/Novara Media types were ‘Identifying as the political representation of the working classes’ and it’s something I think about a lot.

Lisa Muggeridge really struck a chord with me on a lot of points.

bombastix · 17/04/2024 10:40

@TheClogLady if you are interested then electoral calculus will tell you who is likely to stay and who is not. They are historically pretty accurate on electoral outcomes.

TheClogLady · 17/04/2024 10:39

There is deffo a difference between north and south working class but I presume that’s to do with the history of industry (my family were picking up potatoes behind a horse drawn plough while their northern equivalents were in the cotton mills or down mines).
By the 60s agriculture work in my area was replaced by manufacturing but light industry compared to the North (eg at the age of 15 my dad sewed pyjamas at whereas his dad was stacking hay with a pitchfork at 15).

No history of heavy industry means far less trade union activity (a worker is far less likely to die when sewing pyjamas than manufacturing steel!) so the main rivals to the Tories in my home area were always the Liberals, now superseded by the Lib Dems.

Around there (apart from a surge when Blair was fresh) it’s only pretty recently that the Labour vote has gone up, and I presume that’s due to the party flip - Labour taken over by activists who graduated from posh universities (eg Owen Jones) and ‘Red Wall’ Old Labour/Blue Labour voters turning to the Tories to ‘Get Brexit Done’.

Some time ago Lisa Muggeridge said something along the lines of Owen Jones/Novara Media types were ‘Identifying as the political representation of the working classes’ and it’s something I think about a lot.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 10:18

LoobiJee · 17/04/2024 09:59

That was my reaction too.

I suspect MJB was using southern as a proxy for middle class and northern as a proxy for working class, possibly whilst lacking the insight / self awareness to realise that’s what MJB is doing.

Show quote history

I'm northern and middle class.

Personally I do think there is a cultural difference even between north and south middle class that's not socio-economic.

There is cultural pressure to conform and be kind in the south due to politics in a way that's different to the north. Being blunt and to the point is accepted in a way that's not the same. In the south it's more about being polite.

I can't even quite put my finger on it and explain it. It's subtle.

But interesting it's being picked up on.

Lion400 · 17/04/2024 10:14

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 09:33

Northern women are a problem eh?

What is it about class and socio-economic that differs between north and south? What is it culturally that's an issue here?

Northern women! Always problem. Speak too much, and always say what they think with no filter, urgh! They always tell the truth!

Let women speak, but not Northerners. Good god.

LoobiJee · 17/04/2024 09:59

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 09:33

Northern women are a problem eh?

What is it about class and socio-economic that differs between north and south? What is it culturally that's an issue here?

That was my reaction too.

I suspect MJB was using southern as a proxy for middle class and northern as a proxy for working class, possibly whilst lacking the insight / self awareness to realise that’s what MJB is doing.

TheClogLady · 17/04/2024 09:58

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 08:24

I’ve been reflecting on how well Victoria Atkins dealt with all the questions, very able politician

Some stood out as not good however, I wonder what the calibre will be like after the GE - hopefully not Moyle and Butler types

Unfortunately some of the least impressive politicians in are in the safest seats, in all parties 😬

I’m hoping Labour will take Brighton Pavilion from the Greens tho - the candidate there (a bloke who used to be in an indie band in the 90s) was the terfiest of the shortlist and Caroline Lucas is stepping down so the loyal-to-the-incumbent effect to contend with.

Both Zarah Sultana and Rosie Duffield have small majorities so I’m hoping we’ll keep Rosie and wave Zarah off.

Arch Tory and chair of the 1922 committee Graham Brady is stepping down (for what looks like commercial reasons - a stonking book deal) and Labour have a really good chance of taking that seat (excellent local councillor candidate who got the nomination despite being male, stale and pale 😂)

I used to love pouring over the swing seat/target seats for Labour strategy, I’m still interested in all the stories behind the marginals but in a much more candidate-by-candidate way, no party loyalties nowadays.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2024/04/13/list-of-100-mps-standing-down-at-next-general-election/

List of 100 MPs standing down at next general election

Conservative MPs account for the majority of members not seeking re-election.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2024/04/13/list-of-100-mps-standing-down-at-next-general-election/

TheClogLady · 17/04/2024 09:44

Also anything we post here is at risk of being deleted, which makes the work of organising/archiving a bit pointless/disheartening.

TheClogLady · 17/04/2024 09:42

Karensalright · 17/04/2024 09:23

Just a thought i have noticed a zombie post about a meeting a mumsnetter, made a record of.

Got me thinking about the calls for an enquiry into all of this capture. Maybe we should all be hunting out information posts and compiling a dossier of evidence of how this all happened.In readiness for an enquiry.

I would have thought this board is packed full of useful evidence. I just would not know where to start or how to do it.

.

MN site functions aren’t great for archive building unfortunately - we often have brilliant conversations in the middle of unrelated threads and you can’t copy a quote from one thread to another without losing the quote formatting. The compilation threads such as ‘Break it down for me’ are excellent but also overwhelming for those reading for the first time.

Thankfully lots of people have been compiling evidence elsewhere online, either individually (Still Tish’s blog site is excellent) or collectively/informally (The Farms) or via newly formed orgs such as Sex Matters/Safe Schools Alliance.

It might be worth contacting Sex Matters to ask if Mumsnetters could be helpful in a voluntary capacity so that any internet searching/archiving we do is an effective use of our time?

I proper love MN as a site for discussion but it’s rubbish for making organised threads!

BionicBadger · 17/04/2024 09:36

Just watched via the link above. I’m hugely impressed with Victoria Atkins. More politicians like this please.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 17/04/2024 09:34

EasternStandard · 16/04/2024 18:31

That sounds like rational GC women are responsible for aggressive males

We’re not.

It’s a fresh take on attempting to suppress though. No thanks we can say no and discuss safeguarding for children as we like.

Especially given the harms.

First rule of misogyny, innit @AdamRyan ? Claiming that women talking emboldens men to be violent is first rule of misogyny. We aren't responsible for what these violent scrotes do.

RedToothBrush · 17/04/2024 09:33

Northern women are a problem eh?

What is it about class and socio-economic that differs between north and south? What is it culturally that's an issue here?

Karensalright · 17/04/2024 09:23

Just a thought i have noticed a zombie post about a meeting a mumsnetter, made a record of.

Got me thinking about the calls for an enquiry into all of this capture. Maybe we should all be hunting out information posts and compiling a dossier of evidence of how this all happened.In readiness for an enquiry.

I would have thought this board is packed full of useful evidence. I just would not know where to start or how to do it.

.

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 09:01

crunchermuncher · 17/04/2024 08:33

This is a brilliant article, articulates what I have been unable to perfectly.

The mass gaslighting is so painful.

Show quote history

The mass gaslighting is so painful

It really is

crunchermuncher · 17/04/2024 08:33

CorruptedCauldron · 16/04/2024 12:04

Not sure if this has been posted already but Victoria Smith has tweeted that she’s upset by the both-sidesing regarding the “toxicity”. She linked to this article:

https://thecritic.co.uk/trust-and-the-terf-wars/

This is a brilliant article, articulates what I have been unable to perfectly.

The mass gaslighting is so painful.

borntobequiet · 17/04/2024 08:25

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 08:09

On the BBC's shocking failures to report on Cass/WPATH, etc, I just looked up which Minister is responsible for it.

Lucy Frazer is Sec of State for Culture, Media and Sport.

I'm going to write to ask her to look into the BBC and institutional capture, and their reporting on gender and gender ideology.

https://members.parliament.uk/member/4517/contact

Oh I’ll forward my email to her too.

EasternStandard · 17/04/2024 08:24

I’ve been reflecting on how well Victoria Atkins dealt with all the questions, very able politician

Some stood out as not good however, I wonder what the calibre will be like after the GE - hopefully not Moyle and Butler types

Swipe left for the next trending thread