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Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review

136 replies

MidsomerMurmurs · 15/04/2024 07:25

Sally Hines et al have written a letter…
https://uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2024/04/letter-from-academics-concerned-about.html?m=1

Worth a read, both for the quality of its argument and for the list of signatories.

https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1779535066944634919
When your letter against the Cass Review is signed by Andrew Wakefield, then some alarm bells ought to go off that you are on the wrong side

https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1779535066944634919

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KellieJaysLapdog · 15/04/2024 10:30

Topofthemountain · 15/04/2024 10:13

Dr Hane Maung seems to have packed an awful lot into his relatively short life if you look at his LinkedIn.

Thanks for that - I went to have a look.

Does this mean he must have voluntarily given up his GMC registration? No sign of him on their website.

I realise some people decide medicine isn’t for them fairly quickly but giving up after just one year of being a registrar seems pretty odd? Any MN (medical!) doctors about?

Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 15/04/2024 10:27

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2024 09:56

See what I find depressing is that I'm a media and history grad. My degree is actually useful in terms of marketing and understanding target audiences and a huge part of my degree has been applicable in terms of being able to critical disassemble the bollocks using my understanding of propaganda (which is part of advertising too btw), politics and history. Its all about holding power to account. It also covered ethics in media and technology change again which has proved to be useful.

Yet media is always regarded as a mickey mouse degree. The reality is there are good media degrees and there are terrible ones.

A lot of these academics are doing stuff that isn't applicable and useful to the real world. Its just a pet project that no one else is ever going to give a shit about. And no one is looking at this and asking questions about its real world value and how many experts we need in certain fields.

Also, even though I am an arts grad, I am capable of learning and understanding at least the basics of bias in research, methodology and quality of research to a point where I know where something is utter bullshit. And I wouldn't go around questioning the methodology of Hilary Cass because she clearly knows what she's doing because I understand that!

Studying media and history also goes into a lot about understanding the quality of sources and bias. It does it in a different way but it is very much about understanding people with differing views and where this might be problematic to your understanding. It covers politics and propaganda in examining sources.

For supposedly clever people, even in completely unrelated fields, they are undeniably academically illiterate. Some of them are historians and media specialists and they aren't applying any level of quality analysis that I would expect even from those fields using the methodology applicable to those fields.

I go back to my point about good degrees and terrible degrees and it not just being the subject thats the problem.

These are people who have hidden in academia for years and years and no one has questioned their presence there.

They need to.

We are living at a time where there still this thing which Nigel Farage termed as 'the liberal elite' who are out of touch with reality. This sentiment has political traction and unfortunately the calibre of academics who spout bullshit like this only serves to help this. The far right damn well can capitalise on this nonsense. Just yesterday I was talking to a parent of a kid in my sons class and she was saying she was contemplating voting Reform. It makes me despair.

The centre ground really needs to take a look at this and start to have a clear out of grifters in academia and grifters in the charity sector who are there for no ones benefit but their own pay packets. Its not just embarassing, its politically dangerous in a number of ways which go way beyond the Cass Review.

100% agree.

My only question is why this list of signatories are still employed.

I work in the private sector and people have been fired for far less. Making a public pronouncement on something like this, denigrating the work of actual medical experts, using such anti science bullshit, is surely gross misconduct at least. And that's before you get to the actively supporting destruction of safeguarding and child sterilisation.

DialSquare · 15/04/2024 10:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:41

I won’t be thanked for this, but…I really think this is another example of posturing academics, many in frankly Mickey Mouse social ‘sciences’, parading ‘Dr’ in public and expecting to be thought some sort of maven.

I don't know why you think you won't be thanked, it seems dead on accurate to me! I can't use the MN thanks feature because I'm on the app though.

I use the app but I've always got a version of MN open in safari so I can go in and thank people.
So if anyone has received thanks from me, you now know I made a special effort to do so!

EdithStourton · 15/04/2024 10:21

The centre ground really needs to take a look at this and start to have a clear out of grifters in academia and grifters in the charity sector who are there for no ones benefit but their own pay packets. Its not just embarassing, its politically dangerous in a number of ways which go way beyond the Cass Review.
@RedToothBrush FWIW I totally agree. There are grifters in the charity sector who really need to be told to stick to their charities' core aims.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 10:19

I see your point.
But it’s not as if Billy Bragg et al would have thrown up their hands and admitted they were wrong, they would either have ignored it or picked another one from the menu of Cass-dismissing options, eg It Doesn’t Tell Us Anything We Didn’t Already Know.

Fair point, and there was a bit more flailing around before TRAs settled on this position as they seem to mostly have done, so first you had people who were normally in agreement on "trans children" praising the "important" review and saying it has been "hijacked by terfs to claim something it doesn't say" and blaming the "toxic debate" on women like JKR.

Topofthemountain · 15/04/2024 10:13

Dr Hane Maung seems to have packed an awful lot into his relatively short life if you look at his LinkedIn.

EdithStourton · 15/04/2024 10:11

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:33

Testing Treatments is one of the best guides you could ever read or listen to on this. So straightforward and I recommend it to everyone.

Free download of the book and audiobook: https://www.testingtreatments.org/

English: https://en.testingtreatments.org/

I have a long journey coming up so that is one to download!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2024 10:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:22

The fact that their challenges are so laughably feeble just makes the report end up looking stronger.

To an extent, but it's allowing the spread of disinformation by trans rights activists.

I see your point.
But it’s not as if Billy Bragg et al would have thrown up their hands and admitted they were wrong, they would either have ignored it or picked another one from the menu of Cass-dismissing options, eg It Doesn’t Tell Us Anything We Didn’t Already Know.

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2024 09:56

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 15/04/2024 09:32

I won’t be thanked for this, but…I really think this is another example of posturing academics, many in frankly Mickey Mouse social ‘sciences’, parading ‘Dr’ in public and expecting to be thought some sort of maven.

AFAIC this just shows why we should ignore academics unless they work in core disciplines and have genuine standing: someone like, say, Professor Robert Winston.

See what I find depressing is that I'm a media and history grad. My degree is actually useful in terms of marketing and understanding target audiences and a huge part of my degree has been applicable in terms of being able to critical disassemble the bollocks using my understanding of propaganda (which is part of advertising too btw), politics and history. Its all about holding power to account. It also covered ethics in media and technology change again which has proved to be useful.

Yet media is always regarded as a mickey mouse degree. The reality is there are good media degrees and there are terrible ones.

A lot of these academics are doing stuff that isn't applicable and useful to the real world. Its just a pet project that no one else is ever going to give a shit about. And no one is looking at this and asking questions about its real world value and how many experts we need in certain fields.

Also, even though I am an arts grad, I am capable of learning and understanding at least the basics of bias in research, methodology and quality of research to a point where I know where something is utter bullshit. And I wouldn't go around questioning the methodology of Hilary Cass because she clearly knows what she's doing because I understand that!

Studying media and history also goes into a lot about understanding the quality of sources and bias. It does it in a different way but it is very much about understanding people with differing views and where this might be problematic to your understanding. It covers politics and propaganda in examining sources.

For supposedly clever people, even in completely unrelated fields, they are undeniably academically illiterate. Some of them are historians and media specialists and they aren't applying any level of quality analysis that I would expect even from those fields using the methodology applicable to those fields.

I go back to my point about good degrees and terrible degrees and it not just being the subject thats the problem.

These are people who have hidden in academia for years and years and no one has questioned their presence there.

They need to.

We are living at a time where there still this thing which Nigel Farage termed as 'the liberal elite' who are out of touch with reality. This sentiment has political traction and unfortunately the calibre of academics who spout bullshit like this only serves to help this. The far right damn well can capitalise on this nonsense. Just yesterday I was talking to a parent of a kid in my sons class and she was saying she was contemplating voting Reform. It makes me despair.

The centre ground really needs to take a look at this and start to have a clear out of grifters in academia and grifters in the charity sector who are there for no ones benefit but their own pay packets. Its not just embarassing, its politically dangerous in a number of ways which go way beyond the Cass Review.

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:53

There are many, many sensible academics across a wide variety of fields. Part of that sense is reflected in avoiding an area that is known to destroy careers and can be financially ruinous.

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 15/04/2024 09:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:41

I won’t be thanked for this, but…I really think this is another example of posturing academics, many in frankly Mickey Mouse social ‘sciences’, parading ‘Dr’ in public and expecting to be thought some sort of maven.

I don't know why you think you won't be thanked, it seems dead on accurate to me! I can't use the MN thanks feature because I'm on the app though.

Thank you.

I feared that there would be many social science academics and grads on MN who might harrumph at my view of their fields of study - not that that would preclude them holding GC views of course.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:41

I won’t be thanked for this, but…I really think this is another example of posturing academics, many in frankly Mickey Mouse social ‘sciences’, parading ‘Dr’ in public and expecting to be thought some sort of maven.

I don't know why you think you won't be thanked, it seems dead on accurate to me! I can't use the MN thanks feature because I'm on the app though.

KellieJaysLapdog · 15/04/2024 09:34

I don’t think this is new thread worthy but it’s in my recent browser history so will throw it in here.

GenderGP have published critique of Cass on their blog, written by this person, who is apparently employed by GenderGP:

This person claims to have a medical degree from Cambridge but does not appear to have practised as a qualified medical doctor after graduation (no GMC registration, at least not under the name used online).

I will post archive links in a separate post as they may get temporarily stuck in Mumsnet’s spam filter…

Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:33

EdithStourton · 15/04/2024 09:27

Ta.
DH is a scientist, but sadly I am not!

Testing Treatments is one of the best guides you could ever read or listen to on this. So straightforward and I recommend it to everyone.

Free download of the book and audiobook: https://www.testingtreatments.org/

English: https://en.testingtreatments.org/

Testing Treatments interactive

This website is about why testing treatments rigorously is important and what YOU can do to promote better research for better health care.

https://www.testingtreatments.org

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 15/04/2024 09:32

I won’t be thanked for this, but…I really think this is another example of posturing academics, many in frankly Mickey Mouse social ‘sciences’, parading ‘Dr’ in public and expecting to be thought some sort of maven.

AFAIC this just shows why we should ignore academics unless they work in core disciplines and have genuine standing: someone like, say, Professor Robert Winston.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:31

This is leaving the vast numbers of people who've outsourced their thinking on this matter to believe that the Cass Review is flawed when it did exactly what is said on the tin.

I can see a lot of the usual suspects breathing a huge sigh of relief that they can fall back on these ridiculous TRA interpretations to dismiss the Cass report and prop up their own cognitive dissonance. See Bragg, Jones etc.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 15/04/2024 09:30

‘I cracked up when I opened it to Natacha Kennedy at the top (the Goldsmiths employee whose post transition ladyself ‘co authored’ a paper with their pre transition manself). ‘

Natacha describes Natacha as a ‘feisty GIRL’ .

And here is another ( more famous) bearer of that spelling

Letter from academics concerned about the Cass Review
KellieJaysLapdog · 15/04/2024 09:28

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:11

Yes and no, Cochrane's processes allow for RCTs that are randomised in allocation to an intervention (active, inactive, placebo) but nobody is blinded thereafter or you can have levels of blinding (participants, clinical investigators, outcome assessors etc.) This is where the various tools kick in that then grade the quality of evidence based on things like the trial design, how the randomisation was done (that matters enormously), how many arms to the trial, the type of placebo etc.

It can depend on a number of relevant variables and the evidence base.

Thanks Rethinking - I love Mumsnet, such a wide variety of interesting and informed posters.

I’ve got two pointless arts degrees (one from Goldsmiths!) so am about as clued up on this stuff as Sally Hines is 😆

EdithStourton · 15/04/2024 09:27

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:11

Yes and no, Cochrane's processes allow for RCTs that are randomised in allocation to an intervention (active, inactive, placebo) but nobody is blinded thereafter or you can have levels of blinding (participants, clinical investigators, outcome assessors etc.) This is where the various tools kick in that then grade the quality of evidence based on things like the trial design, how the randomisation was done (that matters enormously), how many arms to the trial, the type of placebo etc.

It can depend on a number of relevant variables and the evidence base.

Ta.
DH is a scientist, but sadly I am not!

Karensalright · 15/04/2024 09:25

@Ereshkigalangcleg yes but they are just talking amongst themselves in reality matters not accept for giving us all a laugh.

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 09:24

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2024 09:16

I disagree, I think it’s perfectly fine for those who want to challenge it to do so, no matter where they are located in the world. It’s how science works.
The fact that their challenges are so laughably feeble just makes the report end up looking stronger.

(Tbh I would rather it was coming from abroad because it makes me sad to see idiots bringing our universities into disrepute.)

Yes, disagree. Frame that disagreement in objections to the methods, processes, tools, etc.

However, we've seen the harm of people who disagree on the grounds of not liking the results. They're claiming their objection is to the methods, processes, tools and trial design.

This is leaving the vast numbers of people who've outsourced their thinking on this matter to believe that the Cass Review is flawed when it did exactly what is said on the tin. That is active misinformation and disinformation and the harms of that are substantial. We've been living with them in the social and civic arena and none of this will end well for anyone.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/04/2024 09:22

The fact that their challenges are so laughably feeble just makes the report end up looking stronger.

To an extent, but it's allowing the spread of disinformation by trans rights activists.

ResisterRex · 15/04/2024 09:18

Challenge it using the right information though. Surely?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 15/04/2024 09:16

ResisterRex · 15/04/2024 09:09

Thread on the false claims about Cass and the studies. It's outrageous that a review in our country is being undermined from abroad, using the wrong information. Some of the timings set out here, certainly open up the question as to whether this was done on purpose.

x.com/benryanwriter/status/1779671152148857212?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

I disagree, I think it’s perfectly fine for those who want to challenge it to do so, no matter where they are located in the world. It’s how science works.
The fact that their challenges are so laughably feeble just makes the report end up looking stronger.

(Tbh I would rather it was coming from abroad because it makes me sad to see idiots bringing our universities into disrepute.)

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