SelfID law passed in German parliament.

It didn't change the outcome, but I noticed BSW voted unanimously against. One of the underreported background elements in their split from Die Linke has been a rejection of the party's embrace of gender woo. Sahra Wagenknecht has talked a lot about how they've turned their back on class and economics in favour of pronoun bollocks.

People might differ from Wagenknecht on other issues, but it makes a huge difference to even have a minority on the left openly opposed. If the overt opposition is only from the right, and dissidents on the left are afraid to speak up, it's very easy for the whole discussion of gender ideology to become polarised on party grounds. We've got enough experience of the left using shaming tactics to keep everyone onside.

"policing women's bodies" ( bleurgh)

@GrumpyPanda I sometimes think the term “gaslighting” is overused, but then you read something like that which is so manipulative that it’s entirely appropriate.

This is so depressing.
i wonder how long it’ll be before I see naked men in my local pool changing rooms.

Oh god yes, we only have to look at the Cass report and all captured institutions here. We are only at the start of undoing the years of damage.

They did insert a passage (nicknamed the "sauna clause") saying general anti-discrimination law would remain unaffected - thus leaving it up to providers whether or not to continue offering single-sex services.

How can they have single-sex services based on actual biological sex, if everyone can choose their own legal sex?

Can I just point out in Germany it's a progressive left party propped up in power by Greens. Sound familiar?

And if you are about to respond ''But it is the conservatives who have allowed trans-madness to get as far as it has''

If we had had a labour government we would be on that list alongside Spain, Germany and the rest of the Self-ID countries. No shadow of a doubt.

I say this as a life-long labour voter (no more)

@Winterborne74
What I don’t understand is what rights women have to single sex spaces in Germany, and how these will be impacted. I’ve seen a couple of reports saying that organisations can choose to provide single sex services and this will not be affected by this change. So is there a fear that self ID will lead to a cultural change which will in turn lead to a decline in single sex provision, rather than the fact that self-ID will have a direct impact on women’s rights in law? Or is there more to it?

Not a lawyer so I'm probably missing some nuance. They deliberately left all of that out, in part to ensure the bill wouldn't need bicameral approval. They did insert a passage (nicknamed the "sauna clause") saying general anti-discrimination law would remain unaffected - thus leaving it up to providers whether or not to continue offering single-sex services. But there's been immediate criticism.of this from all sorts, including the Green Party Anti-Discrimination Czar bellyaching about "policing women's bodies" ( bleurgh.) So legal challenges are likely, and it's also likely any bans will need to be case by case, whatever the fuck that means. And nobody has addressed the fact that some core services (swimming pools! mostly with open plan single-sex showers) are run by municipalities. Lawyers will have a field day.

IF YOU DONT WANT US TO GO THE SAME WAY, VOTE CONSERVATIVE

@mrshoho

There's little in the UK to be proud of these day but this subject is one where we do seem to be more attuned and questioning and prepared to protect children. It feels as though we are the outlier when even a country like Germany can pass such liberal laws.

Yes and no. OTOH British feminists are miles ahead of Germany in very many aspects. OTOH until now it's also been a less acute issue as the administrative culture differs so starkly. Germany is much more legalistic and thus has escaped the Stonewallification and takeover by de facto Self-ID that seems so clear on every NHS thread for starters.

Countries who feel they have to atone for the sins of the past do seem to be prone to disordered thinking coming from identity politics.

Actually I believe minors WILL need obligatory counseling - for all that's worth 😶. TRAs are already frothing at the mouth about it.

So a criminal could self-id as a woman and anyone who mentions his former name and correct sex without his permission could be prosecuted and fined?

Nope, can't see any problems that would create.

So many of these countries with self id appear to have sleep walked into it. It does seem this is a known tactic as laid out on the Denton report.

There's little in the UK to be proud of these day but this subject is one where we do seem to be more attuned and questioning and prepared to protect children. It feels as though we are the outlier when even a country like Germany can pass such liberal laws. Is it true that Germany has a clause that would halt self id in the event of a war (to stop men abusing the system to prevent being called to serve)?

Reading that Denmark has had self id now for many years, I'd be interested in hearing from women there how single sex spaces if they exist work and how women and children are protected.

I think that’s exactly what it is.

Hello to all German posters, and commiserations! This is a safe space for thought crime.

(just to add, I didn’t mean to minimise the impact on children and teenagers by not commenting on that aspect of the new law, it’s just the implications there are clearer to me.)

Hello from Germany! Yes, it is dire. A lot of people don’t understand what is going on. It will take 6 months for the law to become active, and there is much talk of a legal challenge and certain elements of the law being unconstitutional. The ruling coalition are solidly behind it - only a couple of dissensions - and only two parties opposed, the CDU/CSU and AfD. Yep, I’m a thought criminal now.

Those laws in relation to young children are enabling abuse.

I did find something on Tagesschau but there wasn’t a huge amount of information.

What I don’t understand is what rights women have to single sex spaces in Germany, and how these will be impacted. I’ve seen a couple of reports saying that organisations can choose to provide single sex services and this will not be affected by this change. So is there a fear that self ID will lead to a cultural change which will in turn lead to a decline in single sex provision, rather than the fact that self-ID will have a direct impact on women’s rights in law? Or is there more to it?

I’ve also seen that it’s not misgendering or deadnaming that will be financially penalised, but “malicious outing”, but I don’t see how these can be distinguished unless the latter contains an element of harassment. But in most cases it is very obvious what sex someone is, so the whole concept of outing is meaningless unless it means not pretending that you think a man is a woman, or vice versa. How is it supposed to work?

On the German parenting site where I used to post and still occasionally read there is some sort of discussion about trans issues every now and then but the quality of discussion is dire. I think one or two posters are reading MN and are very well informed but the rest is pretty clueless. It's not helped by the fact that many/most of them don't follow news in English and get all their information about what's going on from German news sites.

Sorry, another post from me and slightly picking up on what I said in my first post:

As a Germany, listening to German radio and reading German news I find it extremely sad and concerning that this is not more widely reported on in Germany.
It is almost as if they feared a backlash if made public?

It is completely crazy, there will be parents who will determine their child to be "non-binary" from birth, others who will celebrate their child being "trans" purely because it plays with the "wrong" toys.

And a five year old confirming their sex, well, my nephew just did that last week. "I cannot go into the girl's loo to wash my hands. I'm a boy, what if anyone sees???"
It would not surprise me if the €10K fine only applies to any one over the age of 14, which is the age of criminal responsibility. But then what would stop a beligerent teenager to call their transitioned parent by their previous "Mama" or "Papa"?

They have opened Pandora's box today.

"The ‘Self ID Shit’ just hit the fan in Germany - big time.

It could be the most bonkers Self ID law ever passed:

• Parents can choose a child’s sex, including ‘non-binary’
• Child can confirm their sex from the age of 5
• You can change sex as often as you like (with a 12-month wait in between)
• ‘Misgendering’ can get you a fine of €10000

I need to read up more on it, but it sounds proper crazy / verrückt.

A very bad day for women and girls and homosexuals.

Germany already has a ‘conversion therapy ban’ in place so this consolidates its position as a dystopian ‘trans’ paradise"

https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1778791434469937333?s=19

I wonder how many people actually know this was voted on today? Listen to German Radio (SWR1 BW) while at work, all day they talked about the new law for family names, zilch about the "Selbstbestimmungsgesetz".
Same for the Spiegel, nothing to see.
I only found out because I follow someone on Twix who was posting about it all week long.

But now we cannot call the likes of a certain German MP a male without being fined.
And those fines could, theoretically, apply to anyone, regardless of age.

Just checked, the MP I voted for at the last election voted against, the one where I am moving to voted yes.
And another MP for my home constituency voted for it as well. That does not surprise me as she only seems to vote for popularity.

Wtf have they lost all senses?