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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SelfID law passed in German parliament.

167 replies

Brefugee · 12/04/2024 15:03

It's done.
636 votes
373 yea
251 nay
11 abstentions

Am going to assume that there will now be a long legal challenge. I want to scream.

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Brefugee · 14/04/2024 08:28

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/04/2024 07:22

My main takeaway from this thread is, ‘the Germans reviewed their grammar and decided it wasn’t hard enough’. 😉

#SorryNotSorry (I can say that now I'm actually German)

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Brefugee · 14/04/2024 08:26

GrumpyPanda · 14/04/2024 00:01

Well done @Brefugee. Just checking - I trust you're aware of the Binnen-I being the non-queer form of gendering? The doyennes of German feminism, such as Alice Schwarzer or the linguist Luise Pusch, will only ever use this over the Genderstern. And Lordy we must all sound like a right group of nutters to non native speakers.

[psst. I'm not actually a native speaker. Very darned close tho]

I feel bad not using the * when I write after someone who uses a screen reader told me about it. Which is why I try to use a generic femininium now.

As for the pp with the EU comment above 🙄

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MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 14/04/2024 07:22

GrumpyPanda · 14/04/2024 00:01

Well done @Brefugee. Just checking - I trust you're aware of the Binnen-I being the non-queer form of gendering? The doyennes of German feminism, such as Alice Schwarzer or the linguist Luise Pusch, will only ever use this over the Genderstern. And Lordy we must all sound like a right group of nutters to non native speakers.

My main takeaway from this thread is, ‘the Germans reviewed their grammar and decided it wasn’t hard enough’. 😉

sanluca · 14/04/2024 07:18

Whilst in the Netherlands the self id law has just been kicked to the kerb by NSC and BBB, two right of center parties that won big in the last Dutch elections. So there is something good in a country not voting for the left parties.

GrumpyPanda · 14/04/2024 00:01

Brefugee · 13/04/2024 20:37

i have decided to use only a generic feminine version of writing, except for work stuff where we do "gendern" (I'm ok with that, but it is down to being a feminist and feeling excluded when there is a generic masculine form used. and to piss off people on twitter who think it's either because i forgot the * or because I'm a stupid foreigner who can't speak/write German or that I'm a hairy-legged womyn in dungarees)

It is... amusing.

Well done @Brefugee. Just checking - I trust you're aware of the Binnen-I being the non-queer form of gendering? The doyennes of German feminism, such as Alice Schwarzer or the linguist Luise Pusch, will only ever use this over the Genderstern. And Lordy we must all sound like a right group of nutters to non native speakers.

DrBlackbird · 13/04/2024 23:42

Boiledbeetle · 12/04/2024 21:00

"The ‘Self ID Shit’ just hit the fan in Germany - big time.

It could be the most bonkers Self ID law ever passed:

  • Parents can choose a child’s sex, including ‘non-binary’
  • Child can confirm their sex from the age of 5
  • You can change sex as often as you like (with a 12-month wait in between)
  • ‘Misgendering’ can get you a fine of €10000

I need to read up more on it, but it sounds proper crazy / verrückt.

A very bad day for women and girls and homosexuals.

Germany already has a ‘conversion therapy ban’ in place so this consolidates its position as a dystopian ‘trans’ paradise"

https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1778791434469937333?s=19

Well. I suppose this utter batshit insanity could finally be the one positive reason for being out of the EU? ‘Sex’ has become meaningless. If no sex, no sexism, no sexual assault? Definitely no single sex spaces. Truly the world went insane on this issue. No wonder that Dr Aiden person referred to Germany. Thank god for living on terf island.

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2024 22:17

Bloody hell, Germany.

agent765 · 13/04/2024 22:02

I've recently watched The Rise and Fall of the Nazis.

It just struck me as so similar. It starts fairly quiet then builds until it's big enough and feared enough that people who want to object are too afraid to.

It takes a while to realise that this isn't kindness to children but opening doors to people who least have their interests at heart.

The doors are being opened to men who ultimately gain access to children and women.

It's never failed to amaze me that women are left trying to close these doors and being harmed along the way, yet if husbands, fathers, and brothers spoke up against this cult it would be far easier to shut down.

I come across different types of men online and IRL. Many just have an underlying hate for women. When I've mentioned or read about trans women in women's sport their answers are always the same: feminists wanted equality, get on with it. These men don't like women and/or want us put in our place.

Yet surely they can't all be like that? We need to get them to look up from their newspapers, see, understand and act on the harm being done to their women and children.

There are a few men on these boards who get it, my DP gets it, and even my gay brother gets it. It's getting them to get off their arses and do something about it. They get it but don't do it. Maybe we should get a Nike campaign going to get them to just do it instead of not doing it.

I fear it will be an even harder slog for the women of Europe than it has been here. Even here it's only the battle that's been won. The war is still ongoing.

Maerchentante · 13/04/2024 21:48

I think I mentioned this on a thread last year or so:
I was looking up a memorial site I wanted to visit. They have a cafe on site and it said “Sitzplätze innen”. My first immediate thought was “Why are they gendering seats?” until the penny dropped.

It will definitely be interesting to see how the law is applied in the various states.
For sure, Bayern will find its own way and Baden-Württemberg, while having a Green Ministerpräsident is also a bit more conservative.
But then, of course, MdB Ganserer is from Bavaria.

StainlessSteelMouse · 13/04/2024 21:38

I mean I'm perfectly happy to write "liebe Freundinnen, liebe Freunde", since that's what I say. It's not as if written German has a great aversion to being long winded.

Visually speaking, I know lots of younger people say they struggle to read Fraktur (which I've never had a problem with), but I really do find it hard to deal with a text that's peppered with symbols. It might be one of those cases where what's meant to be inclusive can actually exclude.

Brefugee · 13/04/2024 21:18

the * is used by screenreaders to differentiate between Freundinnen and FreundInnen.

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StainlessSteelMouse · 13/04/2024 21:04

I didn't mind so much when it was just "liebe FreundInnen", I've used that often enough, but I'm damned if I'm putting a * in the middle of a noun 😀

Brefugee · 13/04/2024 20:37

i have decided to use only a generic feminine version of writing, except for work stuff where we do "gendern" (I'm ok with that, but it is down to being a feminist and feeling excluded when there is a generic masculine form used. and to piss off people on twitter who think it's either because i forgot the * or because I'm a stupid foreigner who can't speak/write German or that I'm a hairy-legged womyn in dungarees)

It is... amusing.

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StainlessSteelMouse · 13/04/2024 15:03

ChaToilLeam · 13/04/2024 13:24

I live in Bayern so very interested to see how it will play out here, outside of Munich that is. Bayern has already banned „gendern“ in public institutions - a so-called „inclusive“ language practice.

https://apnews.com/article/germany-gender-language-bavaria-change-school-grammar-8a0ae45ebf0134627221382d0bbb0ef0

Bayern is pretty good at interpreting federal rules in its own way. And it's not as if the current federal government is in a position to lean on the states.

I can see why the language stuff has become a flashpoint. The last spelling reform wasn't popular, and I still instinctively use the old spelling if I'm writing in German. This new bureaucratic language peppered with colons and asterisks to signal inclusivity just looks too stupid for anyone who's not a DEI professional.

I've noticed "gendern" also becoming an election issue in Thuringen. Between that, and the cops in Mecklenburg pulling that girl out of school to caution her about posting nationalist Smurf memes on TikTok, I'm starting to wonder whether the German centre-left is on some mission to consciously lose votes.

Igneococcus · 13/04/2024 14:58

Bayern has very different areas, it's not just Munich and the rest. Nuernberg, Erlangen, Augsburg, Regensburg, Wuerzburg (my hometown) all have large numbers of students and are quite different from the smaller towns and rural areas. Nuernberg has always (except once, I think) had SDP mayors and councils, contrary to the CSU dominated Bavarian governments.
Anytime I tried talking to Germans about this they think it's about people with a DSD.

Igneococcus · 13/04/2024 08:47

I can also see Bayern spitting feathers and coming up with special federal rules for themselves.

I agree this will play out very differently in different states. Prison services for example are run by the states (though governed by federal law). There will be a very different approach between, say, Berlin and Bayern or Baden Wuertemberg.

Beefcurtains79 · 13/04/2024 08:41

Don’t forget about the absolutely disgusting ‘mega brothels’ n Germany where you pay 70 euros to legally sleep with as many vulnerable, trafficked women as you can. Some of them also offer a free buffet for when the poor men need to refuel.
Germany hates women, they always have.

PastTheGin · 13/04/2024 08:27

Gosh, I completely missed that! I am always surprised by how unanimously pro trans / be kind / no harm done public opinion seems in Germany. I am a tentative terf in the UK, but thoroughly in the closet in Germany. Time for a coming out, I think…

Brefugee · 13/04/2024 08:26

sorry for the glut of posts i've been reading and posting. Sara Wagenknecht spoke well yesterday, i thought. I pretty much usually go for Die Linke when i vote, but i may check them out now i can't go Linke.

TBH i don't think in a lot of places much will change day-to-day. I live in a fairly conservative ex-mining area, with a high number of muslims. Our local pool has the changing village arrangement, with family rooms, and people don't generally get naked in the showers there much over the age of 5. My gym is something i will keep an eye on, but generally in this area we don't encounter much in the way of gender woo. It will be interesting to watch Cologne and Düsseldorf which are slightly further away than my nearest town, especially as Cologne likes to position itself as the Gay Capital of Germany.

I can also see Bayern spitting feathers and coming up with special federal rules for themselves.

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Brefugee · 13/04/2024 08:17

upthehill24 · 12/04/2024 20:59

Re the Germans allowing 14 year olds with no medical assessment to simply register themselves as having changed sex: It is, in a horrible way, all of a piece with the mentality which made Germans set the age of 14 as the age of sexual consent.

Edited

it isn't as clear cut at that. there is a 2 year age gap, so anyone over 16 having sex with a 14 year old, or 17 with a 15 year old, isn't legal. But they do give leeway if it is a relationship that has been going on for a while.

And no need for anyone to clutch pearls - as though 14 year olds in UK aren't having sex.

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Brefugee · 13/04/2024 08:15

upthehill24 · 12/04/2024 20:23

I notice Germany now approves letting 14 year olds 'change sex'. Obviously nobody there heard of Cass. Nor of WARPATH. Nor of other countries which have U turned.

on the contrary, Cass has been much discussed here since the interim report came out.

I am watching and waiting. Meanwhile i am trying to find out what Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria is in German. Will report back.

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