Rosie Duffield and Kellie-Jay Keen

She's not saying sacrifice anything. I think the hint was: 'we'll fight about that later'. Medicalisation of children is happening NOW. Bans on contraception are not here or anywhere in America, and not likely to happen. Even Trump can see that would be a massive vote loser, given that almost every woman in the Western World relies on them!

theilltemperedclavecinist no you're not. In most contexts, this would have been an 'oh dear, I missed you off my list, sorry, but I do remember calling on you in my early days in these debate and really appreciate it' that no-one else even noticed.

Yes, Rosie's response has continued the arguments, but her not responding to KJK would have anyway,

Although I woudl say, in the midst of the Cass report and the acknowledgement of the irreversible psychological and physical harm done to those kids and young people, people getting irate because KJK wasn't named by RD seems deranged.

I was assuming your name is Ada M Ryan!

I'm not a man. I just use a male UN. Confusing I know

you may well be right- but I did enjoy KJK's response and can understand her reaction given the demoralising shit she's had from many supposedly on the "same side".

🙄
I didn't give it any "build up". All I was doing was giving some sources of information that might show PP why some people could think KJK is pro life.

If KJK wants to focus on American pro-life mothers, and if she really thinks that the "woman = adult human female" battle is worth sacrificing abortion rights for, that's up to her.

If she thinks that getting rid of the idea of Gillick competence is so important that taking away access to contraception and abortion for teenage girls is an acceptable consequence, that's up to her.

I happen to disagree with all of that and I think many feminists would

Adam thinks understanding someone else's point of view automatically = agreeing and aligning (I think this is the equivalent of school cliques) with them.

Nothing Adam posts ever supports what Adam thinks it does in my experience.

Am I the only person who thought Duffield was trying to let KJK down gently for having been missed out (but should have known it would just open another front in the whole stupid argument)?

Oh, no!!! 😱 She's listening to Christian mothers concerned about their own children!!!! What's she going to suggest next? Asking Muslim women how they feel about it???

We've got the shut her up now before those religious women hypnotise us all into covering our heads and rejecting a woman's right to choose!

I've got a much better idea. Why don't we ask men like Adam. Only they can keep us on the right track before we lose all our rights!!!!!

Oh, Adam, the build up you gave that clip, I honestly thought you'd found absolute dirt on KJK- I'm almost disappointed by how benign that was!

this purity bollocks really has to go

The politics of the past few years have given some of us pause for reflection: there are beliefs that I have come to understand- even if I don't subscribe to them

I know it's hard to digest, Adam, but sometimes people from different backgrounds think differently to us- we're not all neatly cookie cutter and neither should we be.

regarding Rosie and KJK- I guess a generous take would be that Rosie's omission of the latter could be seen as an oversight, or perhaps her list wasn't intended to be definitive

But I suspect that Rosie sees KJK as expendable, not worth the hassle- and I do understand the ceding (KJK's word) of ground because it's easier. Rosie's in politics and has been put through the wringer- she has vital support from Bindel and the head girls, she doesn't need KJK and it's probably easier not to ally with her given that many of her pure feminist mates don't like Kelly.

Exactly. There’s no need. Move on, nothing to see here etc.

Indeed.

WTAF?

KJK, rightly or wrongly, is associated with the far right. It would be politically extremely inadvisable for a labour politician, especially one that many in the grassroots are already suspicious of, to praise or acknowledge her. It’s nothing to do with KJK’s contribution, which I’m sure Duffield would acknowledge in private, and all about the optics.

Fucks sake, I opened this thread because I thought it might be the start of Round 2 of the pronoun wars, not a dispute about a thank you speech.

I have a lot of time for both individuals but I don't know either of them or move in either circle, I don't care about their personal disagreements and don't know why I should be expected to care.

Yes I don't disagree that RD can name who she likes. She should have left it there. However I do think pretty much staying that KJK - who runs a grassroots women's movement, has had her life threatened by a baying mob and who has set up and is a leader of a political party - was a) ridiculous and b) rude.

If I wrote a list of all the superb women who have defended our rights during the attacks of the past few years, it would have been a lot longer than Rosie Duffield's.

I didn't see Rosie's list as belittling Kellie-Jay Keen, any more than, say, Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend. Or those who put their lives into running the other organisations set up to try to regain our lost rights. Or the scores of women whose crowdfunders I've supported as they battled against losing their livelihoods for refusing to say men can be women.

I have huge admiration for KJK and for Rosie Duffield. Each has made great efforts in defending women's rights. Each been vilified and suffered abuse and aggression that would have broken anyone weaker. If they disagree with each other -- well, feminism has always been full of passionate arguments and different visions of the way forward.

One of the vast differences between the trans movement and ours is that we don't demand obedience to a creed. We don't try to police each other's language or associations. We don't create purity spirals in which yesterday's stars can be tomorrow's outcasts.

I continue to be glad we have both Kellie-Jay and Rosie on our side.

https://twitter.com/ICanSeeForever1/status/1633479544916045824

Usually I find when people say stuff like that there is a reason why, it's not just made up.

Whole thread on it here too
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4586847-and-this-is-exactly-why-posie-parker-is-a-liability

I'm honestly perplexed as to how you could be more 'in the political arena' than setting up and being leader of a brand new political party.

She's far more "in the political arena" than Maya, Helen, Julie or JKR. Fair enough she doesn't want to name her - but at least be honest about it don't treat us like credulous idiots.

I like RD but this is disappointing. It would have been more convincing to say she didn't want to name her as leader of a rival political party to the one RD is in.

This thread has at least given me a laugh, KJK 'pro-life'! Obviously only someone who has never actually watched her videos but forms their opinion via hearsay could think that. Love it when FWR is invaded by Americans, always good fun. 🤣

Aren't there already threads about this. I have read far more than I am interested in.

And unfortunately by making it a thread title it just means google etc., will just add this to the KJK fights with the "left".

Maybe we could have a thread called gossip, where we can swop tit bits that we just cant help ourselves taking notice of, but are usually nothing more than twitter spats.

Who is the man with the sub stack, please?
I’m not great on who’s who.

I don’t think it’s fair to make a big deal of the screenshot exchange above- I think both were pretty mild. I assume the comments from the various supporters were a bit more robust?

I’m surprised JKR was included on a ‘political’ list. I see her work as in the same realm as KJK’s. As very visible outspoken women. JKR has grace and kindness while KJK is more, erm, blunt.

Everyone has either contributed to or opposed the pushback on this ideology, imo. You have the muppets like Hermione and Harry (sorry, having a dim moment), and the giants who I won’t list because… you know, lists! Some working behind the scenes, known only by the really clued up and others using their talents more visibly!

Also, pleased to see that Julia long (very much her own person) has always had KJK's back

Happy to give you a titter, Adam 😘

😂 that's really tickled me...

Oh, I wasn't aware yesterday's bullying but it would be in keeping of his trashing women he dislikes before half a million followers.

I was once in a group with him when he was being sued by Hayden for, I think, the second time. I'm not unsympathetic: we all know that Hayden is a litigious lunatic. But he said he was going to ask for a £65,000 "war chest" - a surplus to spend as he wished. My own case cost £6000 in the end and £65,000 is just ludicrous when you're at the point of exchanging correspondence and will almost certainly settle. That was a huge disappointment because it looked very much like the grift TRAs accuse us of. Add in the copying/pasting of women's tweets for his Substack and I think he's not in this for entirely honourable reasons.

Recently, he's cut off an Irish LGB group for questioning Stella O'Malley's remarks about butch lesbians bring like AGPs - indeed, he announced privately that anyone challenging Stella / Genspect should not be promoted or platformed. I can't, therefore, see how his behaviour is any different from the bullying and ostracisation that he claims to have experienced.

agree- disappointing from Rosie (who has been amazing). KJK can bask in the knowledge that her integrity can never,ever be called into question.