Guardian just can't help itself, even on Cass Report day

Exactly. I've always wanted more and better studies. Most of the GC ppl I know have. Without good evidence, you can't make good decisions. GIGO

WRT single-sex spaces, I've always wanted to talk about balancing rights and trying to work for the overall good but no one on the trans rights side wanted to discuss any rights except trans ppls' rights. I have CPTSD and so can't use many single sex spaces (w/o triggering my CPTSD) if trans women use them. I have even said that maybe ppl like me (and other women who can't use single sex spaces if trans women use them) should be the ones who use other spaces, with trans women using women's spaces. But I was always shouted down as a bigot. They refused to discuss it at all or even consider that anyone else had any needs or rights that might be impinged. Same for any other issue I tried to discuss with TRAs.

There was always going to be the "both sides" rubbish, how else were the proponents of this deluded thought process going to excuse their behaviour? The BBC this morning were still shoving the trans waiting time stuff, while headlining "toxic debate", with no acknowledgement of exactly where the toxicity was coming from.

also a reminder that it was no us screaming #nodebate at people

Let's not forget getting people fired, doxxing people, multiple court cases, schools hiding their transing children and insane lessons from very suspect organisations from parents, training of very dubious merit given to professionals of all kinds, mad stuff being taught to children in schools, children encouraged to contact strange men if their parents didn't immediately comply with demands, loudly and violently protesting any meeting of women...

It's just not a two sides thing.

Surely if the Cass report confirms anything it’s that one side, the side that kept asking for evidence that treatment was safe & successful, was in fact right at all along

in what way are the TRA right on this?

also a reminder that it was no us screaming #nodebate at people

Having lived and worked in Brighton since the mid 1980’s opening paragraphs are “spot on.” The number of young people that had teachers, peers, advocacy services and PARENTS that were pushing through the idea that the solution was gender dysmorphia to the exclusion of everything else.
Some Brighton parents just loved “special “ children. I was and heartbroken by their behaviour and the fact that they will not suffer the consequences of their actions.

After 20+ years working in the voluntary sector and criminal justice system with perpetrators and victims of crime. 💯 agree with your comments.

Quite remarkable. The choice the Guardian, the BBC, the Labour Party and all the rest who have bought into this ideology is: a) respectfully acknowledge the findings of the Cass Review and gracefully execute an about-turn or b) double down and continue insisting you were right in the face of the hard evidence.

I suppose there is also a c), which is issue a grovelling apology and spend some time in abject self-reflection questioning how you managed to get it so wrong, but that isn't going to happen.

I'm almost impressed that the Guardian has managed to choose b), given that the turning tide is now so enormous that anyone left peddling gender ideology is very soon going to be universally ridiculed as a knave and a fool.

Generally when there is some sort of scandal/failing there will be an interview with people who have suffered because of this.

I find it interesting that don't have anything from detransistioners.

there are many parents who have irrevcoably hamred their children who will be feeling unimaginably sick to their bones today. I can't begin to imagine how very heavily those pennies are now dropping.

"Maybe being a parent of a trans child is an identity in itself."

Well indeed. I think for some utter narcissists, this is entirely true.

I doubt its true of most parents or even many.

Parents have been led to believe medicalisation was the only option to keep their child alive - by fucking professionals and supposed child safeguarding experts such as teachers and social workers. I can't imagine how hard it would be to realise you've put your trust in their "expertise" and encouraged your child down a dangerous, experimental and irreversible pathway. I can see why those parents would rather double-down and pretend those who disagree hate their kids. The alternative is to take responsibility and that would be very painful.

I suspect a significant number of parents, maybe even the majority, feel helpless and fearful of losing their children in a society fully captured by this movement. In true cult-like fashion, activists like to alienate children from their loved ones. How awful it must be to watch your child suffer and diminish and be able to do nothing about it.

I'm not a parent but the agony of their predicament resonates with me wholly.

This article has an uncanny resemblance to Radio 5 Live interview Nicky Campbell did earlier.

Is it the same woman?

(oops - sorry if that's off topic for this thread.)

The Guardian are going to have to start doing some interesting pivots.

Cass is very carefully not pointing the finger but she's not saying "both sides" either. She was clear that there was a fear of being called "transphobic" and that practitioners were/are afraid to use the ordinary therapeutic practices that are relied on for other conditions.

CAN-SG must be pretty chuffed. And there are likely to be some implications for conversion practice legislation too.

Yes, I was unfortunately unsurprised to see that Guardian article.
And yes to the 'both sides' - I don't think it was both sides that meant, as Cass said, practitioners were afraid to speak up. I really think only one side advocated affirmation all the way.

Cass made a point about a toxic culture, yes. But I’m not sure she “both sides-ed” it as you appear to be doing. The toxicity has all come from one side. A side that absolutely needs to create a narrative of “trans kids” in order to validate the experience of middle aged males with a paraphilia, and has screamed abuse at people who do not believe that children need to be medicalised because of other mental health issues that have nothing to do with those experienced by middle aged males.

I don't know. I just listened to a gender wider lense podcast with Scarlet and what he has been through in America has been horrific. He describes thinking he'd get some exploratory therapy but it was pressure all the way and even his questions and concerns were shut down.

Nope. I've always come at this from the point of view of real concern about the safety and welfare of children and women. I've been called every kind of offensive name and lived in fear of my job and reputation being attacked as a result. What I don't accept is being told to shut up again. Nothing has changed yet and I see no reason for women to abandon this and let if float away for the convenience of people who've pushed and pushed to make it happen and prevent proper discussion of the problems. I don't accept that the toxic debate is the responsibility of women for opposing this absolute madness.

@StephanieSuperpowers you've confirmed my view. That both "sides" prefer to be right and score points off each other than to have a reasoned debate that might help the children that are the subject of the Cass report.

Nope. We were right about it all along. Nothing in this report comes as a surprise to anyone on this forum. We're not going to oblige you by shutting up now. Without the constant pressure from naysayers, this report would never have even been commissioned. You're not getting away with this. It has to stop.

The creeping medicalisation of distress, over the last two decades has not helped with the "trans debate". Students were homesick and adjusting to being responsible for themselves(and quite possibly using alcohol to socialise) they were then told that they may have depression and anxiety. If you have an illness, then services are sought to "cure" you. People expect instant cures, to societal problems. Services become overwhelmed and those people who do have illness are crowded out by those with a level of distress.

They've got three factual and analytical articles on the Cass review all of which are on the front page - which you seem to have ignored. And this one human interest story providing a counter-argument. I don't see a problem with that.

That just sparked a thought.

I've read doctors bemoaning the need some patients exhibit to leave their surgery clutching a prescription. 'Advice' doesn't qualify as treatment, only 'medicine'.

I wonder if there's a similar thought process involved, where only medical treatment counts as treatment, anything else and you're just being fobbed off?

Yes, it would be absolutely devastating to come to terms with what you had condoned. Probably unbearably so, unless you could transfer some of the blame to the medical professionals.

They have to believe that, for all the downsides, the alternative would have been worse. They have to believe that their child might well have killed themselves if they hadn't gone along with it. Every parent's greatest nightmare, the worst possible outcome.

And they'll still be receiving a lot of validation of this viewpoint. Possibly their own child is still saying and believing that suicide was the only alternative.

It's toxic, but what parent wouldn't be terrified out of their wits if they thought there was a risk their child might commit suicide.

Or the other thing they say - that you can stop them while they're minors but as soon as they can they'll leave you, do it anyway, and your relationship with them will be over forever.

Emotional blackmail is very effective when we are talking about our children, the people we love and cherish most.

Hear hear