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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How are you feeling today if you work in healthcare or a captured organisation?

114 replies

Citrusandginger · 10/04/2024 10:23

Following the publication of the Cass report?

I'm a senior HCP and have been carefully emphasising the need to record sex medical accurately for months now, and have received, what I take to be, knowing looks and quietly supportive nods in return.

So I'm not out out, but I am sure that people are aware of my views. I'm also certain that I'm not alone.

Looking at social media today, I've seen people from my network posting media articles, but so far no comments.

My hunch is that a lot of us would like to discuss the issues publicly and in our own names, but are still hesitant because the debate is likely to remain toxic for a while, and could still impact our careers (and distress some patients).

Just wondered what other people's thoughts were and what it would take for you to speak out?

OP posts:
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EveSix · 12/04/2024 00:21

Teacher. I've always been openly GC among colleagues and been warned by leadership for being 'terfy' and a 'biological essentialist' for requesting that I be permitted to consistently use the term 'girls and women' when teaching Y5 about menstruation, as opposed to 'people who have periods / when someone is on their period', and adding that this overwhelmingly means immutable XX chromosomes.

I have really struggled with being seen as unfeeling and mean by colleagues especially as my concerns spring from wanting to advocate for the many girls in our community for whom segregated spaces are essential for religious reasons and communication around sex, bodies, sexuality and reproduction need to be transparent and unambiguous. My deputy head's eyes filled with tears of incredulity when she heard me defend single sex competitive sports recently; she was genuinely shocked and disappointed in me. That stung because I respect her professionally.

I'm hoping Cass will enable new conversations to be had.

Swashbuckled · 11/04/2024 23:45

I’m pleasantly waiting for my senior (male) colleague to return from annual leave. Only last week I noticed he’d suddenly changed his email signature to include his pronouns. I asked him about this and he (to paraphrase) was filled with a sudden urge to be kind. We had a long conversation and I shared my views. We had a respectful discourse, to be fair. I expressed interest in his timing as I felt the tide to be turning. He said he wasn’t aware of a turning tide. The Cass report came out a few days later whilst he was on holiday. I’m eagerly waiting to see what he does with his email signature when he returns 😊.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/04/2024 23:44

Noticd this fascinating thread on X about how Cass via the systematic review has exposesd deceptive practices among medical organisations pushing child transition.
Apparently medical authorities fabricated consensus by deferring to each others' guidelines rather than relying on real evidence. It's called circular referencing:

https://twitter.com/buttonslives/status/1778491281305378884

https://twitter.com/buttonslives/status/1778491281305378884

OnHerSolidFoundations · 11/04/2024 23:09

I really truly hope this gives more of you the confidence to speak out. Keep fighting the good fight ✊🏽

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 22:51

Look at the job titles and seniority of the people who refused to cooperate with Cass and refused to handover data. Captured doesn't begin to cover the NHS fiefdoms.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/11/top-nhs-adviser-trans-health-failed-cooperate-cass-review/

Dr Derek Glidden, its clinical director, refused to comply despite being NHS England’s gender dysphoria national speciality adviser.
He chairs the NHS England Clinical Reference Group on gender dysphoria, while another of its five members, Dr Laura Charlton, the clinical lead at Leeds Gender Identity Clinic, also refused to participate in the research.
The Nottingham clinic has been key to the rollout of a new wave of experimental trans services being set up across the country. It has links to the Indigo Gender Service in Greater Manchester, which describes itself as “trans and non-binary led”, and to the recently launched scheme in Sussex which has put GPs in charge.
…
The clinical leads of the NHS Gender Identity Clinics in Northampton, Newcastle, and Sheffield also refused to cooperate with the Cass Review, as did the now discredited clinic at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust.

Top NHS adviser on trans health failed to cooperate with Cass Review

Dr Derek Glidden of the Nottingham Centre for Transgender Health refused to share patient data

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/11/top-nhs-adviser-trans-health-failed-cooperate-cass-review

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 22:35

Namerchangee · 11/04/2024 20:47

I believe they have the protocol that fits with their biological sex, unless testosterone impacts on the efficacy of treatment?

They’d have to have the correct physical treatment for their sex, anything else would be negligent, by approach I meant ‘how is it talked about/do they have specific literature’ etc.

eg I know in some adult gynae services there are specific leaflets for transmen getting hysterectomies, but presumably the number of MtF paediatric transitioners who have certain cancers are too tiny to have their own leaflets?

Namerchangee · 11/04/2024 20:47

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 13:50

Really pleased to see your post @TrishTrix - my daughter is in remission now so we have a lot less contact with the children’s hospital but we were pretty much in residence for almost a year (end of 2018-2019)

During the years we were extremely engaged with paeds haemotology/oncology in both hospital and in the community I crossed ‘gender’ out on every form and wrote ‘sex’ in instead.

Was pleased to note that at more recent follow up clinic appointments it hasn’t been necessary, as the paperwork all says ‘sex’ now!

Was always curious as to how the staff would approach a ‘transgirl’ with leukaemia, seeing as for some types there is a big difference in treatment depending on sex (boys have a whole year of additional treatment for ALL, iirc).

I believe they have the protocol that fits with their biological sex, unless testosterone impacts on the efficacy of treatment?

Mudgarden · 11/04/2024 19:26

hagchic · 11/04/2024 15:57

Well I'm still angry. Sad and angry.

People still don't care, aren't interested in the Cass report, think it's biased, are happily continuing to drive the pharmaceutical and cosmetic surgery juggernaut down the motorway.

There is now a wariness instead of the outright disapproval when I correct gender to sex, and other indications of a gender critical position. It won't stop individuals from scurrying off to report me to HR, but they are too cowardly to challenge me directly.

So many children have been told directly - there is something wrong with you, your 'gender identity doesn't match your sex assigned at birth' - just because they don't match crappy stereotypes.

Even those who haven't been mutilated, made infertile or physically damage have been psychologically damaged by the ideological message that has led to confusion and distress.

So, it's a win, but there is so much more to do and it's really important not to underestimate how far this is accepted in Healthcare settings, and how difficult it still is to challenge.

I agree. This movement is powerful and cunning, we're already seeing accusations that Cass is biased or plain wrong, and they'll be looking to pull something out of the bag to discredit the report and carry on doing what they want.

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 19:20

Dr David Bell on Times Radio is good, the video is ends with discussion with a trans adult (Katy Jon Went) who agrees that paediatric transition has been an overstep, so perhaps a useful clip to share it anyone who is stuck in the ‘Be Kind’ mindset?

Dr Bell is very calm and measured and speaks well of the aims of the Tavistock (and Portman) and points out that GIDS was nothing like the rest of the institution (which is centred around talking therapies/psychoanalytic practice, research and teaching).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjC7FLXMC0

Puberty blockers have ‘seriously damaged generations of children’ | Tavistock whistleblower

"It is inappropriate to intervene medically in children who express distress in relation to gender."Tavistock clinic whistleblower Dr David Bell tells #Times...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjC7FLXMC0

Mycatsmudge · 11/04/2024 19:13

My NHS paediatric department has just returned a whole batch of new name badgers because they didn’t display preferred pronouns. I didn’t want one but it was decided on a majority vote so we’re all steam rollered into this nonsense. I’m going to cover my pronoun with a star sticker and see if it’s commented on if so I’ll mention the Cass report and dare them to report me to HR for perceived transgressions. I’m even looking forward to confrontation and see how it plays out in the light of the Cass report. The gender rep in a department is a massive bully and manipulative and she’ll report you to whoever if you disagree with her. The department is fairly young so my colleagues either agree with her or if they don’t are too scared of her so don’t say anything. Honestly it’s been a toxic environment to work in for the last few years. I’ve attached the BMJ interview with Prof Hilary Cass which is definitely worth watching and explains a lot about the report.

Gender identity services in England - The Cass review

“Medication is binary, but gender expressions are often not”Hilary Cass has chaired the Independent Review into Gender Identity Services for Children and You...

https://youtu.be/gNTkEoSAaKI?si=itukumN3bOYWzVBO

Citrusandginger · 11/04/2024 19:12

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 17:39

I am very pleased with that BMJ piece!

Yes. I'm saving it for future reference.

OP posts:
Citrusandginger · 11/04/2024 19:12

Mudgarden · 11/04/2024 12:02

@TrishTrix One of the things I just cannot understand is why doctors, especially the older more senior ones, have quietly gone along with gender ideology (or at least not spoken up openly). I work in a very captured university that has a med school. The clinical Profs are famously assertive, demanding and have huge authority, yet none of them has stood up to correct misinformation about sex and gender, “trans kids” and the suicide myth, the dangers of wrong-sex medical diagnosis and treatment, none of it.

These people have been practising medicine for years and they know that TW are not biological women, they know that TW don’t need cervical screening, they know that men can’t get pregnant, that sex is not assigned at birth, and that reassignment surgery doesn’t turn a man into a fully functioning female. Yet they are silent, and way less visible than the young diversity & inclusion officers who were recruited in recent years, and who have been successful in imposing mandatory D&I training for all staff, plus endless other training which people are encouraged to attend in things like how to be a trans ally.

This is the most powerful lobbying movement I’ve seen in my whole life. I’ve seen the senior academics shut down some very high level initiatives, but I’ve seen no resistance to this one.

One of the things I have noticed is that a lot of older males, didn't really understand how damaging the ideology was. The issues didn't affect them or their orbit, so while they didn't for a nanosecond think it was possible to change sex, the concept was so ridiculous that they didn't listen or stop and think about the harm being done.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 17:39

I am very pleased with that BMJ piece!

MyWhoHa · 11/04/2024 16:19

Hit post too soon. No one has mentioned Cass as of yet.

BreadInCaptivity · 11/04/2024 16:15

I posted this on another thread but this article from the BMJ is great.

Couldn't see this posted yet. Great article in the BMJ:

t.co/tSJVPtFKjE

"One emerging criticism of the Cass review is that it set the methodological bar too high for research to be included in its analysis and discarded too many studies on the basis of quality. In fact, the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret. The methodological quality of research matters because a drug efficacy study in humans with an inappropriate or no control group is a potential breach of research ethics. Offering treatments without an adequate understanding of benefits and harms is unethical. All of this matters even more when the treatments are not trivial; puberty blockers and hormone therapies are major, life altering interventions. Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally (doi:10.1136/bmj.q794).7"

And:

"People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity."

MyWhoHa · 11/04/2024 16:05

I'm also a HCP. My organisation is Stonewalled to the hilt but is full of TERFS, even my gay colleagues eye roll at all the LBGTQIA+ stuff.

hagchic · 11/04/2024 15:57

Well I'm still angry. Sad and angry.

People still don't care, aren't interested in the Cass report, think it's biased, are happily continuing to drive the pharmaceutical and cosmetic surgery juggernaut down the motorway.

There is now a wariness instead of the outright disapproval when I correct gender to sex, and other indications of a gender critical position. It won't stop individuals from scurrying off to report me to HR, but they are too cowardly to challenge me directly.

So many children have been told directly - there is something wrong with you, your 'gender identity doesn't match your sex assigned at birth' - just because they don't match crappy stereotypes.

Even those who haven't been mutilated, made infertile or physically damage have been psychologically damaged by the ideological message that has led to confusion and distress.

So, it's a win, but there is so much more to do and it's really important not to underestimate how far this is accepted in Healthcare settings, and how difficult it still is to challenge.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/04/2024 15:47

PS Sorry if this is a derail, it isn't Cass.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/04/2024 15:46

Also (assuming you are in the UK) legally your charity could be on a sticky wicket if a job in a refuge was offered to a transwoman that is otherwise only available to women, because other men could accuse the charity of discrimination. I am not saying your charity would definitely be in trouble because this is still legally murky, but sex is a protected charateristic under the Equality Act, so is gender reassignment, but gender identity is not. The EHRC have said that for transwomen the comparator for employment discrination is men (not women). Your employer might not want to become the test case.

Of course you might not want to be the bringer of the bad news either. Hopefully when the Edinburgh Rape Crisis case is decided your charity will be told about the implications.

(Sorry, this isn't Cass)

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/04/2024 15:32

BeechLeaves · 11/04/2024 10:01

I work in a charity. That has men’s and women’s specific services. But also has said that transwomen could work in the women’s refuge. Luckily that’s hasn’t happened yet. I know this review isn’t related to that aspect of safeguarding specifically, but I hope that it all helps open up these kinds of conversations without being labeled a transphobe.

And what happens if a service user asks whether a refuge is for women only and if all the staff are women? Or if a service user asks for a women-only refuge?

Charities need good policies that respect their services users' needs and preferences, and that includes the need for clear information. Lack of those policies led to the employment discrimination case against Edinburgh Rape Crisis. (The case was heard a week or two ago but the outcome is still to be decided.)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4992537-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-5?page=36&reply=134326602

Page 36 | Another GC Employment Tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #5 | Mumsnet

Roz Adams was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) as a counsellor. She is claiming constructive dismissal for Gender Critical (GC) beliefs...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4992537-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-5?page=36&reply=134326602

HoneyButterPopcorn · 11/04/2024 14:22

My late uncle was a senior child psychologist and lecturer a few years back (before he retired).

I can imagine his reaction to all this - he was definately the type who would have gone down, guns blazing.

Very smart man - a balanced and logical thinker - and the added joy of being at odds with ‘current thinking’ would have been the icing on the cake (he was a contrary so and so who rather enjoyed correcting people or winding them up).

MajesticWhine · 11/04/2024 13:54

I’m a psychologist in a very captured NHS service. I have spoken out a few times before, when it felt possible and not career-limiting. I feel that Cass will make things a little bit easier to speak up but the ideology is very entrenched here and sex was ditched in favour of self identified gender a long time ago. There’s lots of training about the importance of pronouns etc and I don’t think fundamentally that will change.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 11/04/2024 13:51

Xiaoxiong · 11/04/2024 13:32

Yes but @HoneyButterPopcorn, @MrsMurphyIWish has to abide by her school's policy, or get fired. You only have to look at what's happened to teachers who have tried to stand up against their own schools policies to see what happens to them - they get fired, and when they try and bring it to an employment tribunal they lose on the basis that they weren't following their employer's policies.

The fact that the policies are wrong is irrelevant. The teacher still gets the sack.

That's why I'm fighting so hard to change my kids' school's policy, though I saw today in the school calendar that all staff are having an EDI inset training with a trainer with she/they in her bio Sad I fear I will be shut down as the teachers have all now been "trained" to know what the "right" policies are.

Parents like you are invaluable @Xiaoxiong Flowers
This is the perfect time to challenge all this. The new draft guidelines (which hopefully will be toughened up given the exposures of harm from Cass) and of course the Cass report itself that's clear that socially transitioning must only be carried out by those with clinical expertise.

I'd be googling that trainer's online presence / social media - checking to see if they're from a trans lobby group or whether they're a balanced trainer promoting strategies for schools around all the protected characteristics. If the former, then that's worth challenging the schools about why that group? I'm sure you already know this but both Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance have done lots of research into those selling gender ideology to children and the dangerous messages they're promoting.

TheClogLady · 11/04/2024 13:50

Really pleased to see your post @TrishTrix - my daughter is in remission now so we have a lot less contact with the children’s hospital but we were pretty much in residence for almost a year (end of 2018-2019)

During the years we were extremely engaged with paeds haemotology/oncology in both hospital and in the community I crossed ‘gender’ out on every form and wrote ‘sex’ in instead.

Was pleased to note that at more recent follow up clinic appointments it hasn’t been necessary, as the paperwork all says ‘sex’ now!

Was always curious as to how the staff would approach a ‘transgirl’ with leukaemia, seeing as for some types there is a big difference in treatment depending on sex (boys have a whole year of additional treatment for ALL, iirc).

Swipe left for the next trending thread