Biology is not as simple as one might think trust me i am a biologist….

You know that Caster Semenya has a DSD that is 5ARD, don’t you? A male only DSD. And comes from a region in South Africa know to be a cluster region for the DSD. Hence the region was targeted by Ekkart Arbeit who had previous doped female athletes with testosterone. Something of a testosterone specialist you could say.

Semenya has a healthy testosterone level that is nothing like that of a ‘female’ level. And would have known very well that they were not female because they went through male puberty and not female and had no periods.

You seem to be ill informed.

Buff-tip moths really look like a stick. Mimic octopus's can do a cracking impression of a sea snake.
Leaf insects can make you think they are a leaf. The margay does an amazing impersonation of a monkey.

My seeing a moth as a twig doesn't stop it from flying. A monkey thinking a margay is a fellow monkey doesn't stop it from eating the monkey.
How we perceive something doesn't make material changes to it. So while it's fine to 'see' TW's as women it doesn't make them women anymore than an octopus can turn into a snake. 🐙🐍

There's a whole lot of identifying going on ( and half baked science).

There is no "genuine intersex". There are a variety of different DSDs or VSDs if you prefer. Semenya is male and has the same DSD as those who are known as Güevedoce in the Dominican Republic. So, yes, Semenya is male.

I doubt you were identifying as a feminist before I was born, unless you were a very odd 6 year old.

(Remembers "The XYY Man" from ITV in the 70s)

@Tinysoxxx @Karensalright

As I said in my original post, I am an XX/ female/woman and have never considered myself anything else, despite my irrational lifelong hatred of the colour pink, talon fingernails and the current fashion for the trout pout. And have identified as a feminist since before (I suspect) many posters on here were born, possibly before their mothers were born. Not that it makes my opinions any more valid than anyone else’s.

And, for the record, I oppose

• any form of hormone therapy for gender manipulation of pre-pubertal and adolescent children
• allowing anyone who has had the physical advantage in body development of male puberty to compete against women who have not
• mixed sex hospital wards and prisons

Apologies for a minor derail, but this is just starting to remind me of the Fallout video games - A Mysterious Stranger features, as do a gang called "The Tunnel Snakes" 😂😂

ha, that diagram is funny. LIke Jennifer Aniston advertising l'oreal. Here's the science bit.

Gosh. I’m flattered to have caused such interest. So eloquent, too.

@NotTerfNorCis
You mean eg the South African athlete, Caster Semenya I presume? A case of genuine intersex, I would say. My original post, that seems to have caused such vituperation, was merely pointing out that all the Y chromosome does is influence the level of “male” hormones that masculinise the basic embryo from about 8 weeks gestation (IIRC). I presume many posters on here would call her unequivocally a man, though.

BoiledBeetle would know how to create an AI image of a mysterious stranger etc. who rides into town, expecting the townsfolk to be a pushover…Only to discover The Magnificent Vipers…

The mysterious stranger, arguing from the supposed expertise (often couched in vague terms because eg its a fuckin agri science degree), runs into actual experts on here, often turns out to totally be a man and often not much of an expert.

This ain't our first rodeo, mate.

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry.

I do have a question because of a 'gotcha' a TRA raised recently.

Are people with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS or PAIS) biologically female or male?

According to the NHS:

Although people with AIS have XY (usual male pattern) chromosomes, the body does not respond to testosterone (the sex hormone) fully or at all. This prevents the sex development of a typical male.

A penis does not form or is underdeveloped. This means the child's genitals may develop as female, or are underdeveloped as male.

The child may have fully or partially undescended testicles. But there will be no womb or ovaries.

Children with PAIS will be brought up either as girls or boys, depending mostly on the extent to which their body responds to hormones (androgens), including testosterone.

Most children with CAIS are raised as girls.

So raised as girls, but biologically male? If they're happy being girls, what does that mean for gender identity theory?

Some humans are born without legs, it doesn't mean that there is a spectrum of leg numbers in humans.

I believe it's this specific part people are taking issue with;
"...who have suffered a genetic/hormonal accident in their early development. "

Still teaching at secondary school at 68? Really?

My original post is quoted in full on the first page of this thread. Obviously neither you nor the poster above have had the courtesy to read it.

@FlemishHorse your words: ‘I am happy to see trans women as women, rather than as men wearing women’s clothes and make up.’

Are you happy for transwomen to use women’s toilets then?

You see I can fully believe you are a male teacher, possibly ending up SLT. Because some of the male teachers had not a clue about women (also no career break for kids or the bulk of caring duties to stop their career path). For instance, one year the male SLT group spent a fortune on nice upholstered chairs thinking it was a great upgrade from the plastic ones in the school assembly hall. They were covered in brown dried blood stains within a few years and costing a fortune to clean or chuck and replace. The women teachers and the cleaners (women) would have foreseen this and spent the money on far more useful things if they had had a say.

Male teachers and designers are responsible for school toilets being mixed sex, and fully enclosed. They are thinking we’ll get around the problem of boys peeking. They are not thinking about the non-visibility leading to sexual assaults or the hygiene problems or the dangers of an unseen medical emergency. Indeed schools are only now realising the dangers, when girls are self excluding from these toilets.

If you are a woman, then I am incredibly surprised you haven’t followed the argument through. As older women, we are always good in looking for the obvious dangers through the experiences we have had.

Agricultural Science should have given you a good understanding that mammals, birds and insects all are clued up about who’s who. And that food production is very dependent on the realities of sex. I can’t think of an industry where it is more important.

Nor does it mean that because some people are prepared to uphold a lie to be nice to one group of people that another group of people should lose their rights, safety, dignity, access to sport etc.

That's just a polite way of saying you're happy to lie though, isn't it?

You don't see them as women any more than the rest of us do, you're just going to pretend you do.

It’s here and rather bizarrely appears to be in ‘parenting’. PP posted it just now- I’d never have been able to find it.

I’ll report my post and check with MNHQ.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/parenting/2307274-I-am-everything-you-hate-about-people-on-the-internet-I-am-here-to-help