Struggling to answer DS’s questions on why some men are so awful

I think it can be important to show examples of positive masculinity. Have you ever seen the film Thirteen Lives, based very very closely on the Thai cave rescue? (PG 13). It's the most beautiful example of positive masculinity I've seen in a long time. Team work, courage, determination, selflessness, experience, skill and expertise coming together to save lives. That's what real men look like.

"I’ve spent so much time thinking about his younger sister - providing strong female role models, and trying to make sure she isn’t negatively affected by gender stereotypes and all that - that I’ve probably neglected DS’s needs for positive male stuff too. He hears me tell DD all the time that she mustn’t let the annoying boys in her class tell her she can’t play football etc, and he tells her it too. But maybe I need to add something about the good, kind, decent boys/men that are out there too."

Is* *that prompted by stuff that is actually happening to your daughter? I get the systemic reasons that you are saying it, but I think those framing might not be the best. I think it can feed into a narrative of men/boys are constantly oppressing women/girls and in some ways that's quite a negative view for your daughter and crucially one that seems more prevalent than when I was her age. Yes, it's imported to talk about the systemic stuff, but I'm glad I grew up with more of a message of 'There really was a lot of sexist nonsense in the past and we are getting better, not perfect'. I think that's more empowering. I don't want to be the female victim. I took my equality for granted as I should be able to.

The second reason is how those sort of message is feeding into the stuff your son is internalising. I would talk about how we all have selfish impulses and part of growing up is learning about not being slaves to them. Instead we are a decent member of a society. The fact he sees those stuff as wrong suggests he's on the right road.

I'd also talk about us as individuals and the responsibilities each of us has, male and female, rather than focus too much on identity characteristics. There is much more to him as a person than just being male.

I think I would say to him that women also have problematic behaviours, but they are somewhat different than the ones men tend to have. If he's in school, he may be aware that really terrible bullying can go on with girls, with sometimes terrible outcomes.

@Catabogus your son sounds great! And dare I say it, it’s a nice conundrum to have - other parents of boys are often asking the opposite, how can I make him respect girls more, or be kinder etc. it sounds like you’ve been doing an amazing job from when he was tiny to raise a brilliant caring boy.

Beyond Equality are worth looking up - is he going to secondary school in Sept? I think they do workshops from Y7 but might have some resources for younger.

I’d also talk honestly to him about how society works, and patriarchy. You probably have without realising if you’ve been telling your daughter to ignore boys re football etc. Look up ‘innocent socialisation’ and how differently boys and girls are unconsciously treated. With both your kids you could watch ‘No More Boys and Girls’ 2 part documentary on a Y3 class

Sonshine magazine is worth following on Instagram about raising boys, though skews younger

This book is aimed at 13+ but might be good to have on hand

https://alanbissett.com/lads/

Haven't RTFT and not a parent, but I wonder if a new hobby like partner dancing/ballroom dancing would help. No idea if kids think this is cringe or cool, but what I love about it is that it makes the most of the strengths of both sexes. He can enjoy and be proud of his strength but will be using it in a supportive way and it will get him used to being around girls and treating them like normal human beings.
Same with ice dancing or pairs skating, or tennis doubles or something. Or any sport, really that will stop him thinking so much but also learn how great it is to have a male body can be and how to use aggression in a positive way. Any "bad" feelings can sublimated, too. Boxing? Judo, Karate - they are good because of the etiquette and rules around how you fight and having respect for your opponent.

I'll probably have to name change after this, but that's my tuppence-worth.

Bless him, what a lovely boy you're raising. Rather than seeing it as something to change, perhaps boys like him are what will be the change we need.

I know you are posting because you are concerned worried OP, but actually I found it a really positive post.

That your DS is so able to see and articulate what he has seen, and that the two of you can talk!

Lots of suggestions up thread, but was thinking that also, and it may already be happening, is peer pressure. Something that continues through life.

Not saying that young girls and women dont get caught up with peer pressure and trying to fit in, and I am sure many of us are aware of how really mean girls can be, but it is less likely to be violent.

It sounds like he has the character to not give in to peer pressure, such as trying to outdo other boys by being disrepectful to women, or worse violent.

And he has already seen how there is evidence of violence against women, and too many boys and young men then seem to see that it is therefore "naturual" male behaviour. He may have to accept he will never be part of the in group, or rather the loud bragging group, but should be proud of himself for not giving into peer pressure.

This is only one aspect of what your OP was asking, but as we all know, it is all too possible for people to get caught up with wanting to fit in.

But seems to me the best thing for him is that he has and wants to talk to you.

@Catabogus I think I feel (as a 2nd wave feminist and mother of a teenaged son with a father who is very much one of the good guys) that the dominant social messaging now is very feminist led and not necessarily in a good way.

There is no dispute now that women can operate in society in almost every way that men can. This wasn't always true. However, the tropes of toxic masculinity haven't gone anywhere and I still hear in my circles all the time casual throwaway comments from women about the ineptness or the thoughtlessness of men. As I had previously been very aware of tropes about women and pushed back against them. I began to see that tables were turning and many men were not sure how to respond.

In truth, society obviously needs men who contribute and support families and women who do the same. Those women and men need to support each other. This is not to say that the nuclear family is the only option ( I don't think that). But I think a counter narrative to the "meh men" that is pretty dominant might simply be to say "that's sexist and untrue" in the way women had to.

Appreciation of maleness maybe starts with mum expressing an appreciation of maleness. Different but equal kind of thing. I don't think I'm expressing myself particularly well. Sorry!

If it helps I think the teens is a turbulent time, but the ability to converse that you seem to have with your son will help. It isn't easy for them and the 5 years to come he will be working all sorts of things out, whilst dealing with puberty etc. I don't think there's an easy answer, but THE answer is to keep being able to talk to him, even if the frequency drops in and out (it probably will).

Uh-oh, I've just realised my post suggests that boys who grow up without fathers become violent - not at all my intention, I was just thinking of something comforting and positive to say to this little boy.
Apologies to any single mothers, I really didn't mean what I seem to have written as I wrote it, if you get my drift.. Sorry all round!

Poor wee lad, being a child can be really difficult! If he was a MNer, I'd send a
I think that both boys and girls can be taught the same principles of respect and kindness [the real kind!] and thoughtfulness and healthy scepticism, so they just grow up to be decent human beings, regardless of sex.

Maybe tell him that the reason some men are awful could be that they didn't have nice dads like Dad? OK so it's not even remotely scientifically provable, but it might give him something positive to hold on in a scary world?

I think it's important to emphasise that we are not at the mercy of our peers, our environment or our hormones completely. They may push in certain directions at different times, but we all have choices about how we're going to behave and what we're going to do, including him. The really important thing in life is to have some personal integrity, some pride in a standard to which you hold yourself, and it sounds like he has that. I would definitely encourage him to listen to what that voice is telling him and help him to have the courage to ignore anyone or anything that goes against his own personal code.

Remind him that while he can't change other people directly, he can set a good example by the choices he makes, which will in turn help others to be strong enough to be better.
OP he sounds lovely! I have all daughter's but if be proud to have a son with your DS's attitude.

I would also say, as someone else has, that his dad needs to have conversations about this with him (as well as you, not instead of you). What are his dad's thoughts on all these topics?

It sounds like he's worried he will become like this as he grows because he's a boy - and maybe you wont like him? It's hard for him to process. Some men will always behave badly (a bit like the villains in superhero movies) but others are kind and good and strong, and he will be one of those.
just trying to think what I'd say to reassure him!

Does he attend scouts? I can only talk for my group, but our scouts has strong male leaders who are very positive, encouraging & won't tolerate unacceptable behaviour. Lots of community engagement, time away from devices & it's mixed sex too.

I've also heard of a group called Roar which works with young boys on confidence, values etc. but not sure if it's national?

Unfortunately, as a class (not my Nigel) men ARE responsible the majority of violence and physical abuse. As parents of boys, I'm not sure how we navigate that fact with any kind of positivity, except they can 'be the change' which feels hollow, so I'm following your thread with interest.

My son is similarly questioning and earnest (although thank goodness is able to separate the fact that men as a class do these things from the fact that he is a male)

From as soon as he started spending more time on the internet, I've warned him that lots of people are jerks, and that the internet brings it out in people. He's noticed for himself that it's worse in boys, and we shrug and just say 'some people are jerks' and get on with our day.

When it comes to war and poor treatment of women we've had some quite long debates - about how selfish some people are, and how that seems to flourish in men vs. women who tend to take responsibility for other people more (this grew out careful and gentle chats when me and my ex split), how power attracts and tactics of invaders and bullies.

It's a fine line to walk - letting him remain innocent, but arming him against things he might see/hear, giving him the confidence to think about things and decide what is right for himself.

Men are more likely to be bad, and the feminist eye roll at #NotAllMen is pretty reasonable. If you are woman, you can't make assumptions about men based on them being "one of the good ones" because such a large proportion of men, still a minority, are bad.

However, when talking to a boy, it's important to say that there are good men, who respect boundaries, and they can be good allies of women. The feminist position isn't that men are inherently, biologically bad, but that they are made so by patriachal expectations and privilege, which can be fought against.

My advice to anyone raising a child, is "build the best twenty-five year old you can." Teach him his own boundaries, but also how to respect other people's boundaries. Teach him that good traits are important, not whether they are associated with culturally masculine or feminine behaviour. In tiny doses, teach him good behaviour and reward him for that behaviour. He does not have to be like those men. He can be a good man.

https://www.drfinnmackay.co.uk/blog/raising-boyschildren-the-feminist-way-or-some-ideas-for-raising-children-without-gender-constraints