Help me with message to HR

"Excluding 'sex' as an option, but allowing for 'gender' as well as 'gender identity and expression,' risks overlooking the experiences and identities of individuals who may see their biological sex as a significant aspect of their identity separate from gender constructs, or who may not fully identify with or within the contemporary spectrum of gender identities and expressions. This could inadvertently marginalize those whose experiences and self-identification are closely tied to their biological sex, rather than their gender or gender identity, and could result in a less comprehensive understanding of the diverse perspectives within our company."

@Luckydog7

The DWP has removed 'sex' too. I've informed them they say it is fine. Any idea where I can find info to show it is ilegal?

We need an Academie Anglaise

@Chersfrozenface and @SerendipityJane the Gender Pay Gap Regulations use Male and Female not man and woman which I believe makes a subtle difference.

You say there is no ill intent but if the DEI framework will be formed from the outputs of this survey, it is likely to completely ignore equity / equality between the sexes.

Maybe
I am concerned about the absence of dtata collection on sex and its potential implication for the focus of the DEI framework.

While gender identity is important in the context of DEI and can also be very delicate from a political and personal perspective, the focus on gender identity risks ignoring the challenges faced by women in the work place which are entirely due to their biological sex.

At X company,, the board is comprised of X males and Y females, females dominate the areas of M and N which are lower paid than male dominated S and P. Unconscious sex based biased behaviours are common and cannot be addressed if the company does not recognise the importance of the female sex class as a factor in Diversity, Inclusion and Equality / Equity (which ever form of 'E' they use).

Gender identity is not something that is held by all individuals. This has been established by case law. Individuals who do not hold a gender identity, should not be discriminated against, for example, the requirement to declare pronouns and it's implied belief that this relates to gender identity and not sex.

Where sex is the determining factor, for example time off for pregnany and post partum childcare and the consequential impact on salary and career progression or menturation and the requirement to have access to sex segregated toilets, it is important to recognise sex rather than gender identity.

How can they tell if someone is being discriminated against because they are trans if they don't collect data that shows gender identity doesn't match birth sex? 😉

@Skyellaskerry the Cabinet Office along with ONS has measured the sex pay gap of Civil Servants for decades(1979s?) They always used gender rather than sex.

Similarly the language used for the wider public sector and private and voluntary sectors was also gender pay gap.

This all pre-dated the redefining of gender so it was no longer a euphemism for sex so the term carried through into the legislation.

Given that the Cambridge Dictionary definition of 'woman' is "an adult who lives and identified as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth" , I don't think that's going to help much.

I would phrase it as protecting the company from legal ramifications if they choose to exclude one (,or more) protected characteristics stated in an act of parlement and them changing the wording of said act (which is not allowed, you can add additional characteristics but not change the 9 main ones as each of them has legal definitions for law making purposes).

It's a good point that companies may already have the sex data but there are a few important questions about that.

Did they record it as sex or gender?

They have gender as a question, do they mean sex or is this information on top of the sex stats they have?

The questionnaire type is important here. Asking about sex may be relevant/important in context with other questions. E.g. females may be more likely to have a disability, men may be more likely to identify as something other then male. This could have a big impact on services that need to be provided (eg more disabled toilets in women's loos, more mixed sex toilets, but it depends how the results are collated. This data won't be captured if the info is simply collated as 40 women, 50men and 10 nbs for example.

@BlackBean2023 may I ask if there’s a particular reason why you suggest phoning rather than emailing?

“At worst, they don't know the difference between sex and gender. I would call rather than email though.”

It’s ridiculous for euphemisms to be used in regulatory documents and such. They could even have called it something like ‘opposite sex pay gap’ if they didn’t want to put just ‘sex pay gap’ though I don’t think that should be necessary.

The equality Act states both 'sex' and 'gender reassignment', surely any data capture should comply with this Act.

The gender pay gap regulations do not define the terms ‘men’ and ‘women’.

I though it was long established case law that where legislation does not define a word, the commonly accepted (i.e. dictionary) definition is used.

@Missproportionate yes it should be sex pay gap. This is a classic case of using gender as a euphemism for sex.

Mine have done this, They presented it as voluntary but there's a huge amount of pressure to do it and also managers are being told to encourage staff to do it ( we keep getting percentage completed kpis). the argument is that you can taick don't want to say so completion isn't an issue ,
Its not just gender though to be fair- they have things like culture - i have no idea what they mean by culture
our is global so i'm not sure of equality act comparisons

HR Director here. At best, they will already hold that data as it's mandatory for every HR and payroll system I've ever used. It's not something they would need to recollect.

At worst, they don't know the difference between sex and gender. I would call rather than email though.

Thinking about that - I know the phrase ‘gender pay gap’ has been around for many years (before the trans debate anyway).. should it actually be ‘sex pay gap’?

@Yoursmineandours I would forward this link to HR https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/publication/collecting-and-reporting-data-about-sex-and-gender-identity-in-official-statistics-a-guide-for-official-statistics-producers/

This is guidance published by the UK Statistics Regulator earlier this year. It very clearly sets out that sex and gender are different and the importance of understanding what data you are collecting and the need for clear definitions so respondents understand the data being requested.

This is a document produced following the fuck up with the 2021 Census. It carries a huge amount of weight and in the UK should be the leading guidance on this subject.

@Myalternate would that mean that companies, such as OPs, through these types of DEI questions, could also exclude employees who state that they do not have a gender identity at all? Talk about defeating the supposed object of gender pay gap reporting (why it’s called gender pay gap in the first place god knows).

Recording employees’ gender

It is important for you to be sensitive to how an employee identifies their gender. The gender pay gap regulations do not define the terms ‘men’ and ‘women’.

You should not single out employees and question them about their gender. To reduce the risk of this, try to use information employees have already provided, such as in HR or payroll records.

If this information is unavailable or unreliable, find a way to allow employees to confirm or update their gender. For example, invite them to check their recorded gender and update it if needed.

If an employee does not self-identify as either gender, you can exclude them from your calculations.
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So does that mean it excludes Non Binary persons ?

@StealthMama Unfortunately government guidance tells companies to base their pay gap reporting on self-identified gender. You couldn't make this shit up. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-pay-gap-reporting-guidance-for-employers/preparing-your-data

Worth also pointing to the ONS and the census which you could label the gold standard of quantitative data collection.

They asked for both sex and gender identity.

You can also ask them how they are reporting on the gender pay gap if they aren't collecting sex as a charachterisric.

However I suspect they may say they already have this data and the new surgery is additional information.

Do they already collect sex on a persons HR record?

Has anyone wondered about the Data Protection Act, companies cannot just go about collecting people's personal data. They have to have a reason why. So for sex it's about providing information regarding the pay gap to the government. Why do they need information about your gender or lack thereof and what are they going to do with that information