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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We need to talk about America

155 replies

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 12:44

In the last few days I have posted about my experience of being kicked out of a mostly US based parenting group for not agreeing with the rest of the group's views about JK Rowling.

It was a short conversation, in which I politely attempted to explain the Scottish legislation that came into force last Monday in order to give some political context to her recent tweets. I received various responses along the lines of "the only context I need is that she is a bigot". One woman said that her sibling is trans and that she cannot engage in an intellectual discussion about trans issues when her sibling is a real person who is hurting. Another woman said that she has been raped, and she would be absolutely fine using rape crisis services in the company of trans women. I responded in a way I thought was kind and sensitive to both women, saying I was very sorry about what they/their sibling had been through, but felt that everyone's needs should be accommodated, including women who need single sex spaces, and that we need to be able to have a civilised discussion about this. I said I was muting the conversation overnight, partly due to the time difference and partly because there were 50 of them and only one of me, but that I hoped we would be able to agree to disagree and still be friends. By the morning I had been unceremoniously kicked out of the group.

All the people in the group are are women, ranging from in their late 20s to their early 40s. Most are US based, with a handful of Canadians, Kiwis and Aussies. I would describe them as "liberal feminists" purely to identify the demographic I am talking about, although I consider them to be neither liberal nor feminist.

I have come to the conclusion that, if this group is representative of American "progressives", America is lost on this issue.

I do not wish to repeat my earlier thread about this experience, but instead I would like to talk more broadly about American culture and trans issues.

Whilst I am becoming more optimistic about the UK (with many people now openly agreeing with JK Rowling, an increasing number of gender critical "wins" in the court system and the final Cass Report due out this week), I am dismayed by the position in America.

Can we - by which I mean the UK and other European countries which seem to be having similar epiphanies - change the global direction of travel on this issue without the support of the US, and to a lesser extent Canada, Australia and New Zealand?

If we cannot, can we envisage a future in which most of Europe has decided that women's rights matter and children should not be encouraged to transition, even if the rest of the developed world has taken a different approach? Or are we always going to be affected by whatever cultural norms are imposed on us by the US?

Finally, why is the UK "Terf Island"? What is it about us as a culture which has made British feminists so much more resistant to these ideas which have been so wholeheartedly embraced by American liberal feminists?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

OP posts:
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OvaHere · 08/04/2024 18:12

The US is slightly baffling sometimes. I was reading this thread earlier and how these very zealous safety labels are because everything is fair game for harm litigation.

Yet California has also set themselves up as a 'sanctuary' city to pump drugs and hormones into any minor that requests it no questions asked.

Make it make sense!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5045822-whats-with-the-californian-safety-warning-on-tkmaxx-products

What’s with the Californian safety warning on TKMaxx products? | Mumsnet

I’ve seen these warnings on a number of TKMaxx products - something like “the state of California warns that this product contains something that is k...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5045822-whats-with-the-californian-safety-warning-on-tkmaxx-products

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:08

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 18:02

Slightly tangential, but wrt McCarthyism, one of the most powerful early challenges to McCarthy and McCarthyism was from Margaret Chase Smith with her Declaration of Conscience.

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/Speeches_Smith_Declaration.htm

Chase Smith's Declaration of Conscience:

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/SmithDeclaration.pdf

Thank you for this! She sounds like a formidable woman.

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BackToLurk · 08/04/2024 18:08

PuttingDownRoots · 08/04/2024 14:15

The Facebook algorithm has decided I want to see various articles about how terrible JK is... mainly from America.
There are some extremely wild claims... the one this morning was saying The Running Grave was about hunting down autistic people and making lesbians sleep with men. If people are spreading shite like that, its no wonder other people think she is evil.

I saw that. I also saw someone claim that JKR behaved as she does because she "hates men". Pick the bones out of that one.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:05

MattDamon · 08/04/2024 16:51

I have a lot contacts in the US from living there/work and I can tell you when the subject is brought up (usually by me, as they are too scared), 99% think gender ideology is batshit. Due to the industry I work in, these are traditionally democratic voters, and they are as stunned as we are at the speed and breadth this extremist position has infiltrated society.

That's encouraging if true, but how the hell did I find myself in such a bubble?

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:04

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/04/2024 17:16

Evidence is mounting about the profound harms this ideology is causing. UK and European countries are recognising this. The lawsuits from transitioned children will start coming in soon. First a trickle, then a flood. Insurers will be less eager to cover "gender-affirming care" when that starts to happen. Medical ghouls will find themselves without malpractice insurance.
That's what will halt things in the USA.

I'm less optimistic about US policy being influenced by Europe, but I do think that a few high value lawsuits by detransitioners could well be what ultimately causes the tide to turn in the US.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:02

MrsCarson · 08/04/2024 17:03

Well I'm American and thank god I'm not living there right now. Much as I love and miss all my friends and the area I lived, it all seems like a massive shit show, with Biden and Trump right now.
Mind you all but one of my friends are religious republicans, who don't believe in all the men can be women stuff going on. Most are moving out of California to more Republican heavy states. If I were still there I'd be moving state too.
Nothing worse than misogynistic women cowing down to misogynistic men under the illusion that the men think these women are so wonderfully woke

Having a choice between the people who know what a woman is but don't think you should be allowed to have an abortion and the people who fight for your right to an abortion but otherwise deny that women exist is a real Hobson's choice, isn't it?

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RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 18:02

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 17:50

That's interesting. I have been thinking of McCarthyism a lot over the last couple of days but more in the context of people being afraid of/wanting to ban ideas they disagree with. I didn't think about the trade union/collective bargaining context. Probably because the unions appear to be so utterly captured right now that the idea that older GC feminists might have honed their protest skills on the picket lines didn't really cross my mind.

Slightly tangential, but wrt McCarthyism, one of the most powerful early challenges to McCarthy and McCarthyism was from Margaret Chase Smith with her Declaration of Conscience.

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/Speeches_Smith_Declaration.htm

Chase Smith's Declaration of Conscience:

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/SmithDeclaration.pdf

U.S. Senate: Classic Senate Speeches

Speeches Smith Declaration

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/Speeches_Smith_Declaration.htm

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:01

Murica · 08/04/2024 16:57

I'm American but I'm only an expert in my own life and place. Nuts who think the earth is flat are nowhere near a sizeable amount. Jesus.

Descendants of puritans are a small group. I don't think we can blame them. Places that are the most captured like the west coast and the northeast have the highest proportion of atheists.

I agree that Mumsnet has made a big difference and the size of the country plays a part. Our for-profit healthcare system is probably making GI more difficult to get rid of.

The for profit healthcare system is another excellent point, yes. Transgender healthcare is making a lot of people a lot of money over there.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 18:00

TempestTost · 08/04/2024 16:26

I don't find this explanation makes me sympathetic. Because they have a distorted view on almost all of these issues.

Lots of Republican voters may be against abortion to some extent, and some greatly, but there are also many who are very moderate or even pro-choice libertarians on the issue. Also worthy of note, the majority of Americans, by a fair margin, are actually moderate and don't want what lobby groups seem to push. That's within the AMerican left and right.

There is also a lot of variety among Republicans on sexuality issues, there are quite a lot of gay Republicans, and many fairly nuanced positions on things like same sex marriage or legal freedoms vs things like school programming.

Democrats in my experience really caricature Republicans on many of these issues, and that's what allows them to get to a place where they can't bear the thought that they might agree with any Republican talking point. A ot of the time it seems to me it's deliberate, so they don't have to actually challenge their own views.

I don't feel particularly sympathetic towards these women after the way they treated me, no. I'm just trying to imagine how I might behave in their environment.

In the WhatsApp group they quite often put up polls and a recent one was, "Have you ever fucked a Republican?" with the choices being, "Yes", "No" or "I am the Republican". Most of them voted yes, and handful no, none of them admitted to being a Republican. It's like the attitude was that you might have a one night stand with a hot redneck in the same way you might enjoy a greasy burger, but you wouldn't actually have a serious conversation or - God forbid - a relationship with one.

And thinking back, in the very early days of the group (which started on Reddit in 2020), in the wake of all the abortion laws being rolled back there was some discussion about whether to "allow" people with the wrong kind of political opinions in the group. The official conclusion was that a baby bumpers group should be non political, but the fact that the question was even discussed should probably in retrospect have alerted me to the possibility that I was going to find myself in an intolerant echo chamber with no diversity of opinion allowed.

Your comments about Republicans are interesting because it sounds like they might be a more diverse group than Democrats and more accepting of differences of opinion. That mirrors a lot of people's experiences here where even left leaning voters find that dyed in the wool Tories are more respectful of their views than hardcore Labour supporters who see any divergence from the script as an unforgivable betrayal. Is the left more intolerant than the right? Some would say so.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 17:50

Riva5784 · 08/04/2024 15:54

I think another factor relating to individualism in the US is their history of McCarthyism and anti-communism. In the UK we have traditions of socialism and trade unionism that don't exist there because they were suppressed. As pp said, many of the women involved in the early days of GC campaigning here had backgrounds in trade unions and other spheres of collective organisation. Hard to imagine that happening in the US.

That's interesting. I have been thinking of McCarthyism a lot over the last couple of days but more in the context of people being afraid of/wanting to ban ideas they disagree with. I didn't think about the trade union/collective bargaining context. Probably because the unions appear to be so utterly captured right now that the idea that older GC feminists might have honed their protest skills on the picket lines didn't really cross my mind.

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Beamur · 08/04/2024 17:29

I suspect that the basic comparison of extant 'rights' in the UK Vs the USA is a good place to start.
Trans people in the UK are already well protected by legislation. It's a legally protected characteristic. Same as sex. A lot of the pushback here is stemming from women asserting their rights and freedoms. Few people are trying to take anything away.
In the USA I think the rights and protection in law for women and trans people are much weaker. So seeming to oppose the support for a minority is much more loaded.
Privately funded healthcare is also a huge driver when people requiring meds and surgery are your business model.

TERFCat · 08/04/2024 17:24

I regularly go to offline Let Women Speak events.

However, no way would I go to a similar event in the USA! Why? Quite simply, guns. It just takes one lunatic to make it all go very wrong over there.

MattDamon · 08/04/2024 17:18

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/04/2024 17:16

Evidence is mounting about the profound harms this ideology is causing. UK and European countries are recognising this. The lawsuits from transitioned children will start coming in soon. First a trickle, then a flood. Insurers will be less eager to cover "gender-affirming care" when that starts to happen. Medical ghouls will find themselves without malpractice insurance.
That's what will halt things in the USA.

I've read that law firms are already putting teams together to deal with the expected onslaught of medical claims.

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/04/2024 17:16

Evidence is mounting about the profound harms this ideology is causing. UK and European countries are recognising this. The lawsuits from transitioned children will start coming in soon. First a trickle, then a flood. Insurers will be less eager to cover "gender-affirming care" when that starts to happen. Medical ghouls will find themselves without malpractice insurance.
That's what will halt things in the USA.

MrsCarson · 08/04/2024 17:03

Well I'm American and thank god I'm not living there right now. Much as I love and miss all my friends and the area I lived, it all seems like a massive shit show, with Biden and Trump right now.
Mind you all but one of my friends are religious republicans, who don't believe in all the men can be women stuff going on. Most are moving out of California to more Republican heavy states. If I were still there I'd be moving state too.
Nothing worse than misogynistic women cowing down to misogynistic men under the illusion that the men think these women are so wonderfully woke

Murica · 08/04/2024 16:57

I'm American but I'm only an expert in my own life and place. Nuts who think the earth is flat are nowhere near a sizeable amount. Jesus.

Descendants of puritans are a small group. I don't think we can blame them. Places that are the most captured like the west coast and the northeast have the highest proportion of atheists.

I agree that Mumsnet has made a big difference and the size of the country plays a part. Our for-profit healthcare system is probably making GI more difficult to get rid of.

MattDamon · 08/04/2024 16:51

I have a lot contacts in the US from living there/work and I can tell you when the subject is brought up (usually by me, as they are too scared), 99% think gender ideology is batshit. Due to the industry I work in, these are traditionally democratic voters, and they are as stunned as we are at the speed and breadth this extremist position has infiltrated society.

cocavino · 08/04/2024 16:41

LittleLittleRex · 08/04/2024 14:18

The whole culture in the US is more individualistic and libertarian. In terms of freedom, they focus almost exclusively on the freedom to do things at an individual level (have guns, have abortions, have access to women's spaces ) there is very little fight for freedoms from things at a population level (such as being shot, being ill, being flashed/assaulted).

Unfortunately the churches are the only voices restricting freedoms for people to do things and their logic is usually dodgy as well.

I think the rest of the world can proceed differently to the US. Abortion, gun control, healthcare, etc suggest so.

As an American by upbringing, I think that this is a really interesting take.

Even on the abortion issue - I think it's viewed as the right of a woman versus the right of a baby. And of course babies' rights come before women's rights.

TempestTost · 08/04/2024 16:36

I think that the approach to bills of rights and constitutions in the US and Canada may be a factor. You have a really differernt dynamic once something is put into a protected category like this, because these documents essentially over-ride anything the legislative branches do. The UK is very lucky with the primacy of Parliament being respected. The functioning HoL is also helpful.

TempestTost · 08/04/2024 16:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 13:18

I definitely think there's a lot of truth in this.

I am trying to put myself in the shoes of some of these women and imagine that, if the only people I knew who were expressing concerns about single sex spaces and sports were Republican voters who were also prejudiced against gay people and wanted to ban abortion, maybe I wouldn't want to say or do anything to suggest I agreed with those people.

But their refusal to look beyond their own borders, their unwillingness to understand that the political landscape in other countries is not the same, and their insistence on applying a US context to gender critical feminists in the UK, is a form of cultural imperialism which I find very difficult to stomach.

I don't find this explanation makes me sympathetic. Because they have a distorted view on almost all of these issues.

Lots of Republican voters may be against abortion to some extent, and some greatly, but there are also many who are very moderate or even pro-choice libertarians on the issue. Also worthy of note, the majority of Americans, by a fair margin, are actually moderate and don't want what lobby groups seem to push. That's within the AMerican left and right.

There is also a lot of variety among Republicans on sexuality issues, there are quite a lot of gay Republicans, and many fairly nuanced positions on things like same sex marriage or legal freedoms vs things like school programming.

Democrats in my experience really caricature Republicans on many of these issues, and that's what allows them to get to a place where they can't bear the thought that they might agree with any Republican talking point. A ot of the time it seems to me it's deliberate, so they don't have to actually challenge their own views.

Abhannmor · 08/04/2024 15:57

Sorry @Riva5784 bit of a cross post there.

Abhannmor · 08/04/2024 15:56

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at poster's request

Indeed. After all the so called Pilgrim Fathers* sailed off because they thought Charles I was too liberal and tolerant.
My own tuppence worth is British feminism has deep roots in the trades unions and amongst working class women in general.

  • Not sure why they are called Fathers , arriving 130 years after Spanish, French , Dutch, African and other English settlers.
Riva5784 · 08/04/2024 15:54

I think another factor relating to individualism in the US is their history of McCarthyism and anti-communism. In the UK we have traditions of socialism and trade unionism that don't exist there because they were suppressed. As pp said, many of the women involved in the early days of GC campaigning here had backgrounds in trade unions and other spheres of collective organisation. Hard to imagine that happening in the US.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 15:24

RoyalCorgi · 08/04/2024 15:15

Wow. Telling a black British person that they should be referring to themselves as "African American" is a whole other level of stupidity and arrogance!

Chimamanda Adichie, who's Nigerian, says that in the US people insist on referring to her as African American, and she has to correct them to say no, she's African.

FFS.

Although, I was just thinking some more about this.

It's easier for her because she can just say, "I'm African. I'm from Nigeria."

African Americans, if I understand correctly, call themselves that because they know they are descended from African slaves, but may not know much about their ancestry beyond that because records were not kept.

If a black British person describes themselves as black British (do people do this?) the "black" is a bit redundant because people can see that they are black. But if they just describe themselves as British, they probably get a lot of "but where are you really from?" type comments (which I imagine must be annoying and potentially offensive). However, in a practical sense they probably do know where their recent ancestors were "really from", in that they can say "My grandparents were from Ghana", whereas people who describe themselves as African American need a term to describe themselves which takes into account the fact that they may not know which African countries their ancestors were from.

All a bit off the original topic, but interesting nonetheless.

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RoyalCorgi · 08/04/2024 15:15

Wow. Telling a black British person that they should be referring to themselves as "African American" is a whole other level of stupidity and arrogance!

Chimamanda Adichie, who's Nigerian, says that in the US people insist on referring to her as African American, and she has to correct them to say no, she's African.