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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Hate Crime Bill: Andrew Doyle asks all the right questions of Barrister Sam Fowles

132 replies

ILikeDungs · 07/04/2024 23:17

Scroll to 19:07. I love a bit of straightforward Andrew Doyle.

Free Speech Nation | Sunday 7th April

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuN4D1EpGdI

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teawamutu · 08/04/2024 17:45

He thanked AD for 'vigorously testing his points'. 🙄

Which is probably something he should have done before going on the show.

OtterlyOverit · 08/04/2024 17:35

Good lord that got worse and worse as it went on! AD skewered this muppet good and proper!

teawamutu · 08/04/2024 17:10

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 16:09

SF does a lot of decent pro bono work in planning and he's good. He didn't acquit himself well with AD, nor in this specific area, but he is passionate and knowledgeable about public planning and environmental law.

I'm guessing, but I'm assuming that SF has had quite the past as a student debater. His friend (and former client), John Nicolson, won the World Universities Debating Championships, iirc.

https://www.politics.co.uk/mp-comment/2022/06/23/book-review-overruled-john-nicolson-mp/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nicolson

The John Nicolson who's blocked and castigated as bigots every woman who dares question the holy tenets of self-ID?

Two cheeks of the same arse, if so.

Tinysoxxx · 08/04/2024 16:58

My Dd says he’s being ratioed on Twitter. Hopefully he will learn from this. I expect not.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 08/04/2024 16:44

Are the MOJ figures that Andrew Doyle a sample or are they a population? That is, are those figures based on a sample(s) of prisons and prisoners, or are they a direct count of all the (self-styled) trans prisoners in UK (or do I mean English?) prisons? Because if this is a count of all of them, even if they're a small number, that doesn't make them unrepresentative. They can't "represent" anything, they're not a sample of the population of trans prisoners they are the whole population of "transwomen in prison" who need to be risk assessed. And if the proportion of self-styled transwomen in prison who are sex offenders is higher than the proportion of other prisoners or other male prisoners who are sex offenders then it's not a sampling error it's just a fact. A plain, ugly, hard to swallow fact.

As for "prisoners must be assessed individually" well they aren't now, they never have been, and they never will be. Risk assessments are based on group characteristics, like is a prisoner male or female; a known sex offender or not; violent or not; etc. This idea that prisons do some delicate identification of who poses a risk based on profound psychological insights (that prisons have and the rest of us don't) is somewhere between naive and dishonest.

It is true that the MOJ figures don't say anything about transwomen in general, outside of prison. Prisoners are not a representative sample of the population who are not in prison, trans or otherwise.

But those MOJ figures should affect a prison risk assessment. That's how risk assessment works.

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 16:09

SerendipityJane · 08/04/2024 16:00

SF is accustomed to skilled oratory and a charming smile going a long way

Having seen it in others, one presumes ?

SF does a lot of decent pro bono work in planning and he's good. He didn't acquit himself well with AD, nor in this specific area, but he is passionate and knowledgeable about public planning and environmental law.

I'm guessing, but I'm assuming that SF has had quite the past as a student debater. His friend (and former client), John Nicolson, won the World Universities Debating Championships, iirc.

https://www.politics.co.uk/mp-comment/2022/06/23/book-review-overruled-john-nicolson-mp/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nicolson

Book Review - 'Overruled' - John Nicolson MP - Politics.co.uk

I met Sam Fowles when he wrote to me to complain. How could it be, he asked, that so many MPs display such incredible ignorance about the constitution, and yet speak so confidently about it? I’m afraid he cited a political opponent of mine (but someone...

https://www.politics.co.uk/mp-comment/2022/06/23/book-review-overruled-john-nicolson-mp

SerendipityJane · 08/04/2024 16:00

SF is accustomed to skilled oratory and a charming smile going a long way

Having seen it in others, one presumes ?

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 15:53

SF is accustomed to skilled oratory and a charming smile going a long way.

I would admire SF if there were any admission of having mis-spoken during the discussion with AD and and if SF were to acknowledge making a mess of the data and making unevidenced assertions.

domineastronomy · 08/04/2024 15:22

What an arrogant twat SF is!

SinnerBoy · 08/04/2024 15:04

SerendipityJane · Today 10:27

It is useless to attempt to reason someone out of a thing they were never reasoned into. The best argument will be thrown away upon a fool.

My gran had a similar, simpler one: "Don't argue with an idiot, he's too stupid to know he's lost."

Esgaroth · 08/04/2024 13:45

So the true explanation behind the prison statistics is: pure coincidence, mate.

Are there any countries with larger populations and self ID prison policies that record the same kind of data?

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 13:06

I wonder if SF has watched AD with Michael Foran on the topic of the HCA and if that has prompted reflection on the gulf in competence/knowledge on display (to SF's detriment)? (Timestamp in my direct YT link for Foran.)

https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1777091576201670884

https://www.youtube.com/live/PuN4D1EpGdI?si=2cRUGwhr_2d1GrGa&t=2728

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/PuN4D1EpGdI?si=2cRUGwhr_2d1GrGa&t=2728

SquirrelSoShiny · 08/04/2024 13:00

Bit of a crush on Andrew Doyle after watching that.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 08/04/2024 12:50

It's such a blindspot with these people. Well they are either blinded to it or totally disingenuous.

I stand for truth.
Well... except on this issue, where feelings trump truth.
But only the feelings of certain groups of people (which include violent criminals).
Those groups' feelings (even if they are based on untruths) trump the feelings of other groups.
People who don't agree are bigots or maybe they are misguided and just don't understand why truth and material reality just aren't important in this issue.

Ffs.

334bu · 08/04/2024 12:42

So he actually put up a tiny clip of this car crash interview . Does he really think he did well even there? Mind you Prince Andrew thought his Emily Maitlis interview went well.

CaptainWarbeck · 08/04/2024 12:42

StephanieSuperpowers · 08/04/2024 12:02

I thought it was interesting that he apparently believes that trans women are raped in greater numbers than women.

Didn't he say raped in greater numbers than people? Still, I'd like to see the evidence for that assertion.

If we were to assess prisoners' risk on an individual basis every time, what is the point of male and female prisons in the first place? It seems like he's suggesting that male prisons are basically violent places for people who can manage the risk and female prisons for all the people who can't.

Woman2023 · 08/04/2024 12:38

He had no idea about the MoJ statistics. Thought that the actual number of transwomen sex offenders was a number that Andrew was trying to 'extrapolate' for other reasons.

Yes, he assumed an argument that wasn't there. Those figures clearly show sex offenders trying to game the system to get access to more victims.

I felt by the end that he wasn't listening to anything Andrew Doyle said, was just picking up on odd words and splurting out random irrelevant arguments.

RethinkingLife · 08/04/2024 12:28

Tinysoxxx · 08/04/2024 11:34

Oh. He’s put it on Twitter. The delusion is so strong he has no idea what he sounds like.
I would suggest he looks at this thread to see why he has some training needs, before the misogyny bill he talks about is passed.

Oh and 127 is an acceptable sample size. Training needs: statistical analysis as well as critical analysis.

Bless that SF's styling self as a mythbuster.

Reminds me of Adam Savage's, "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Origin of "I Reject Your Reality ..."

Tested member Jared Hinderer asked Adam about his favorite quote from MythBusters, at the same time a video from @RedLetterMedia touched on the origin of "I ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WFFhicVeXI

SerendipityJane · 08/04/2024 12:19

I can hardly believe this sweaty inarticulate dim bulb is a barrister

If you rely on pieces of paper as a proxy for intelligence then this is the outcome.

StephanieSuperpowers · 08/04/2024 12:19

Can these men ever, ever drag their eyes away from the men they focus on?

Well, no. Women are just the support act, there to reflect the importance and brilliance of men back to them. Even if they're violent rapists.

Datun · 08/04/2024 12:17

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Perhaps he's talking about prison?

I don't think that 'violent crime happens amongst incarcerated violent criminals, is going to be news.

And of course it should be addressed. But not by housing male criminals with women.

Can these men ever, ever drag their eyes away from the men they focus on?

Datun · 08/04/2024 12:13

So the question that Sam should be made to answer publicly: how many women harmed is too many, Sam? How much collateral damage is too much? Just a ballpark number will do. Let us know how many rape victims would make you rethink.

This.

JulesJules · 08/04/2024 12:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

teawamutu · 08/04/2024 12:12

Even if the numbers of men pretending to ID as trans to get into women's prisons are tiny, there are some. And we know fine well that the vast, vast majority of sexual offenders are neither caught nor charged, so even if the crime they're convicted of isn't sexual, the chances of them having committed such offences in the past is there.

So the question that Sam should be made to answer publicly: how many women harmed is too many, Sam? How much collateral damage is too much? Just a ballpark number will do. Let us know how many rape victims would make you rethink.

[It's a trick question: although I've never seen a TRA answer, it's always N+1 where N=numbers already harmed. But I'd love to see him splutter and sweat even more, the stupid shiny twat.]

illinivich · 08/04/2024 12:05

He's changing the argument.

The argument is that its possible that men identify as 'men with gender' to gain acess to womens prisons.

He's saying that the problem isn't that it can and does happen, but if the problem is widespread.

This happens a lot.

Ive seen TRA argue that because the absolute numbers of children of PB is not high, there is no problem. But these arguments dont help the people impacted or stop the problem growing.

He seems to be suggesting that men do indeed find gender to get into womens prisons. So shouldn't TRA be finding ways to stop this being a problem? At some point, prisons for men with gender may be a viable option. Will the trans community be happy for the same standards - the risk to the individual trans identifying prisoners being more important than the other inmates?

If it is true that men with gender are most vulnerable to sexual and other violence, why wouldnt a trans hating rapist self identify into a trans prison? Or would the numbers be too low to cause concern?

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