PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh

I have not made any personal attacks on you@AdamRyan, I questioned your response to the reasoned and reasonable posts in response to yours, your excuse that it was this:

That was me deliberately strawmanning what various people on FWR come across to me like when they start talking about capture etc.

I am not buying it.

You can engage with my point about who benefits if females leave big unions for not being GC enough, or you can make personal attacks. Up to you.

It is not about unions being GC enough it is about them being actively anti GC. How are women benefiting from being members of these big unions at the moment?

I was with Unison (in a different sector) and did have to use them (with a group of other workers) and they were appalling to the point of telling outright lies.

That was me deliberately strawmanning what various people on FWR come across to me like when they start talking about capture etc.

You can ignore it or try to burn it down.

You can engage with my point about who benefits if females leave big unions for not being GC enough, or you can make personal attacks. Up to you.

Yes. Worked public sector before, was a member then (Unison).
I didn't need to actively use the union because they just did all the pay negotiations etc and the fact they were there stopped some of the more egregious workplace issues I've seen in private sector. For example, everyone knew you could approach them for advice and support with grievances if you were a member.

Your statement of what you think clearly states that you believe members of said unions who are considering leaving haven't got the wit to think about said benefits.

Your childish, hyperbolic let's just get rid of all unions just confirms it.

What most teachers want out of a teaching union is not endless politicking and votes to strike, but protection when needed, for example, in circumstances of vexatious complaints by pupils or parents; or for internal disciplinary procedures and so on.

If you were critical of gender ideology in a union which has come out as pro gender - that is not going to give you much confidence of support when it came to, for example, the isues of pronouns in schools, or keeping pupil gender issues secret from parents, and so on

Also, that poor teacher in West Yorkshire who is apparently still in hiding with his family after he was targeted by Islamists. He was, apparently, thrown under the bus by his union - because they were more concerned with protecting the sensitivities ( over sensitivities) of the Muslim community and the supposed reputation of the school.

Exactly @RebelliousCow . To say nothing of the way Kathleen Stock was thrown to the wolves by her union.

What makes you think i think they haven't thought of this? Strange. I was just making a statement about what I think.

I would encourage members of the PCS/NEU etc to think about the benefits they get out of being in such powerful unions and whether leaving is the most effective way to make a change.

What makes you assume they haven't thought of this? Do you think they are too stupid to consider such things?

Also, that poor teacher in West Yorkshire who is apparently still in hiding with his family after he was targeted by Islamists. He was, apparently, thrown under the bus by his union - because they were more concerned with protecting the sensitivities ( over sensitivities) of the Muslim community and the supposed reputation of the school.

What most teachers want out of a teaching union is not endless politicking and votes to strike, but protection when needed, for example, in circumstances of vexatious complaints by pupils or parents; or for internal disciplinary procedures and so on.

If you were critical of gender ideology in a union which has come out as pro gender - that is not going to give you much confidence of support when it came to, for example, the isues of pronouns in schools, or keeping pupil gender issues secret from parents, and so on.

So, do you have any experience of being a union member at all?

Your fixity constellates the opposite counter argument. But you know that which is why, presumably, you continue to post.

Joining a trade union for me personally would be very difficult. I work in professional services. We don't have TUs. We sell our souls to our employers for ££. (We also get to do really great work with really difficult business problems for big customers).

Unions can't do much for one or two members, unfortunately I work in an industry where its going to be extremely difficult to persuade others to join.

I would encourage members of the PCS/NEU etc to think about the benefits they get out of being in such powerful unions and whether leaving is the most effective way to make a change.

Fair enough.

Standing out from the crowd isn’t for everyone.

Trade union activism isn’t for everyone.

No one on FWR expects anyone to put their head above the parapet in the workplace if they don’t feel comfortable doing so.

Oh, and thanks the patronising laughcry emoji, by the way, much appreciated.

Seriously, even putting the captured part aside, why should the women of my sector pay money out of their wages to a union which doesn't know the absolute basics about the sector? And I mean nationally recognised job titles/job descriptions rather than anything obscure.

Really. Why?

Okay. Enough’s enough. Time to withdraw my membership. Any civil service unions that aren’t captured?

I am applying "critical thinking". I'm "critically thinking" about why several anti union posts appeared in short succession.

I'm "critically thinking" about who benefits if females are encouraged to leave TUs because they are "captured". Who are the winners and who are the losers from that?

It's all quite interesting to think about critically.

You’ve just been advised to

• join a trade union;

• encourage your fellow workers to also join;

• campaign for that trade union to be given formal recognition in your workplace.

The ONLY person on this thread arguing for trade unions to be scrapped is you.

edited for typo

😂
I can just imagine my colleagues suggesting we joined a union! I work in very white collar roles. It's not really the done thing, in fact many people hate the whole idea.

But thanks for using amazon warehouses as an example! 😂

Oh here we go 🙄
Fine. Just making a point. Let's get rid of the trade unions, they are captured. While we are at it, let's get rid of the EA and the wokey courts. What could possibly go wrong?

Certain unions are very radicalised and always have been, and not really that democratic - in that many members do not even vote on issues such as strike action. In fact, during the last round of teacher's strikes many members did not even receive a ballot paper.

My father always used to talk about bullying and intimidation in unions - where men are called 'scabs' if they choose to work rather than strike and they were also intimidated into voting a certain way.

My daughter says many fellow teachers in her school felt obliged to strike last year - because they were in the NEU - even though they didn't personally want to. My daughter carried on working throughout - and the school she is at has a commitment to staying open in most circumstances - since it is in an area of high deprivation in which school is increasingly beeing seen as optional by many pupils and their parents.

“What Adam fails to understand, no matter how many times they've had it explained, is that many of us […] used to be in trade unions

I’m still in one, because they are fighting for better pay and conditions.

It does annoy me that they are wasting any money on pernicious campaigning for something I very much doubt their members support in any great numbers.

And of course this topic has not been discussed or voted on. As always, it’s been brought in, top down and under the radar. The pattern is very clear.

Just in case anyone is foolish enough to believe unions aren't relevant in the private sector, they have to be recognised by employers if they represent a large enough proportion of employees.

www.gov.uk/trade-union-recognition-employers/statutory-recognition