PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh

I'm quite happy to challenge you. In fact I enjoy it. I like to play devil's advocate. But as soon as people do challenge you, you tend return to the over-used and predictable insinuations, cliches and tropes about 'right wing' Tories etc

I left altogether. Not sure which other union would be appropriate - perhaps I should look into it.

No idea re unions changing approach. Sadly I think they attract people who are quite fixed in their left wing beliefs (often a good thing as those people are often passionate and principled, but not much room for nuance). So I'm not holding out much hope of change.

Agree re Kathleen Stock.

😂
Mn don't delete "criticism". They delete personal attacks. I'm here because I'm fine with criticism.

Yes. I like challenge. I think it helps sharpen arguments and bring new perspectives.
It is perfectly possible to challenge and even be adversarial without being rude or attacking people.

I know lots of people don't like the challenge however

Thank you 😊
Have you joined another union or left altogether? Do you think the UCU will change approach if enough people leave?

Kathleen Stock had a terrible time. I think the women like her are heroes as they've pushed for legal clarity which means we are all much safer now. But I bet at quite some personal cost to herself

Here's an article on Kathleen Stock and the UCU

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/12/professor-says-career-effectively-ended-by-unions-transphobia-claims

Adam I work at a university and was in the UCU for around 20 years. I'm certainly not someone who requires everyone to have the same views as me. Many of my lovely intelligent colleagues have pronouns on their emails and I think that's completely up to them. I am more than happy to respect people's preferred names, pronouns etc. However I left the UCU last year because:

i) They weren't just "not GC enough" (that would be fine), they actively spoke out against Kathleen Stock when she was bullied out for her GC beliefs. They have written posts such as this one which indicates they not only support trans rights (fine) but also are pro-self ID (not fine with me). I'm a hard working and respectful employee but the one thing I can imagine getting into trouble at work for would be if I expressed my GC beliefs and someone objected. I felt my union would not support me if this happened.

ii) I feel that their strike action in recent years has gone way over the top. I really appreciate them fighting for fair pay and pensions for us. But it used to be perhaps a couple of strike days per year if there was a pay dispute going on, then both sides would come to an agreement. Recently it's been weeks and weeks of strikes whilst refusing to give an inch. Then most recently they achieved a fantastic agreement on pensions which had been rumbling on for years, but instead of pausing and taking stock, they immediately went ahead with a marking and assessment boycott (one of the most damaging types of strike action for students, and a big ask of members) to cover the other ongoing non-urgent gripes. I thought this was wrong.

iii) In regards to changing things from the inside, it's a lovely thought, but in reality I don't have time or energy to be a union rep. I have an incredibly busy job plus young children and elderly parents. And if I did have time, imagine trying to persuade the UCU or any of these unions to a more centrist position on trans issues. You'd be attacked and vilified.

That's just my union experience.

They don't care. When you leave a Union, they email you to ask why. They don't care or act upon any response. At best, you'll get a 'well, you've left now...' shrug.

I'm not surprised @Waitwhat23 but apparently they will be receptive to being challenged from the inside, hmm.

You keep posting in this "echo chamber" because you like to counter the views expressed. Your adversarial approach therefore tends to bring out and creates its own opposition. The sort of dynamic is surely what you are seeking? Why else do you continue to swim against the tide?

You are not seeking agreement - you are seeking challenge, so that is what you get.

I do love being lectured on the trade union movement by someone who admits selling their soul for ££ and won't join a union themselves.

As a public servant with a partner working in the NHS I'll take no lectures from you.

Women are not leaving unions because they are not GC enough, they are leaving because the unions are not supporting women's rights and if the behaviour in Edinburgh is indicative , they are also no friend to the gay community.

They don't care. When you leave a Union, they email you to ask why. They don't care or act upon any response. At best, you'll get a 'well, you've left now...' shrug.

" Burning it down" sounds like enemy action rather than engaged discussion. The reason you get so much resistance and come-back is because you set up that type of dynamic yourself.

The unions (hopefully) are enough of a threat to massively reduce the risk of outright discrimination against women; if it happens the union will support class actions and other legal responses

So women who have their privacy, safety and dignity put at risk in the workplace when men are allowed to share their changing rooms and toilets, will be supported by these particular unions? Will they also support lesbians who receive abuse about their sexuality or will they support men instead?

So you do think the women leaving the unions aren't smart enough to make that decision. You don't think they are doing it because they know damn well the union would throw them under the bus as they did with Kathleen Stock should they find themselves in a similar situation to her.

Surely the unions should ask themselves why women would be leaving them? Why women don't have confidence in them?

Of course. But like all choices, needs to be informed. Sometimes people do stupid things thinking they are "taking a stand". When really they are just harming themselves.

Women who leave their TU to "make a stand" are potentially shooting themselves in the foot.

That's their choice, isn't it?

All of them!
The unions deal with their pay negotiations for them so women aren't having to negotiate their own pay individually, something that doesnt usually work in women's favour. The unions (hopefully) are enough of a threat to massively reduce the risk of outright discrimination against women; if it happens the union will support class actions and other legal responses. The legal advice is there - that's very expensive to pay for if you aren't in a union.

Women who leave their TU to "make a stand" are potentially shooting themselves in the foot. Its not like leaving the Labour Party.

Do you also think that the Unions represented at that protest will condemn the appalling homophobic signs being carried by some of their fellow protesters? Personally, I won't hold my breath.

Maybe you should learn to take criticism.

MN don't delete posts that don't break guidelines. Maybe you should reconsider how you respond to people.

Sorry, I don't understand what you were trying to say? Typo?

And I see you've got my reply to you deleted, all the confirmation I need, thanks.

Why is anyone surprised that unions are anti women? They have never supported women's rights, just ask the Dagenham women .