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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh

164 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/04/2024 18:00

Images from Susan Dalgety.

The event was of course 'Let Women Speak' at the mound.

Why were PCOS and Unite protesting against it?

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1776588747368177981/photo/1

PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh
PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh
OP posts:
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AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 18:26

I dont know edinburgh all that well but would assume from what I remember that protesters from each side would use the gardens as their route to the events and might pass each other to get to/from either event.

And like I say, I remember reading some concerns about the proximity of them.

I am not saying that to deny there were protesters at KJK event (of course there were) but just as an alternative, slightly less controversial explanation.

Waitwhat23 · 07/04/2024 18:09

Wasn't that protest at Waverley Bridge? Not a huge distance away but there's a whole section of Princes Street Gardens between the two and they both started at 1pm.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 17:55

I'm a bit confused to be honest. What I see from op is a picture of two flags - a PCS one and a Unite one. There was also this demonstration very nearby, I remember reading some stuff before it happened about the potential for the two protests to be mixed up.

https://twitter.com/scottishpsc/status/1776006930995220644

PCS have a strong position regarding Gaza

https://www.pcs.org.uk/news-events/news/pcs-statement-israel-gaza

So do Unite

https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2023/november/unite-calls-for-an-immediate-ceasefire

So I wonder if actually the flag bearers were there for the Israel/Eurovision event and whoever took the photo has put 2 and 2 together to make 5. That makes more sense to me than two massive unions protesting "let women speak", knowing they have GC members.

Its good publicity for LWS/KJK though. The protests do help her get her events/messages into the media.

https://twitter.com/scottishpsc/status/1776006930995220644

334bu · 07/04/2024 17:33

Still no union condemnation of homophobia displayed at Edinburgh protest. Shame on them!

GailBlancheViola · 07/04/2024 17:29

I think the protection of a Union is a bit like insurance- worth it should you find yourself in a position where you need it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising

No-one in their right mind would continue to pay insurance premiums to a company that would not help them when they need it, would they? So why should women pay union subscriptions knowing their union will not act in their interests or support them? Women are not getting what they pay for or were promised yet they should continue to pay up?

On the subject of the thread do you @AdamRyan have any comment to make on the unions being represented at this particular event being against women speaking? Do you consider them to be guilty by association for being on the same side as those who were holding those homophobic/rape culture signs? Or are they somehow not tainted as the rule only works one way?

RebelliousCow · 07/04/2024 16:35

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:44

That might be your view. I too see you repeatedly making points I disagree with and insinuations about lefties, bad faith, anti Christian etc.

Like everyone, I have some core values and beliefs that are likely to be expressed in debate. Those aren't "cliches". Those are part of being human.

Have you ever considered that your stance provokes people to make points, on purpose, to counter yours, which is what i've already suggested several times.

Old Lefties tend to known Lefties very well.......that's why you get so much push back. Because your positions are often ones that were moved on from some time ago - in the light of life and experience. The biggest critic is often one that knows and understands that which it criticises very well.

TinselAngel · 07/04/2024 16:35

I think trade unions are very important in protecting people at work. They usually reflect their members views and are very democratic.

Speaking as a former union convenor, hahaha! You know fuck all about unions Adam

DisappearingGirl · 07/04/2024 16:28

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:45

I think the protection of a Union is a bit like insurance- worth it should you find yourself in a position where you need it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising Flowers

Absolutely, and that's why I paid into one for 20 years, as insurance to protect myself and others should we need it.

However the main reason I could see myself needing it was if I got into trouble re GC views, and they'd already been actively hostile to Kathleen Stock and made it clear they were very pro self ID. So not much good as insurance!

Another reason for leaving (I forgot number iv!) was that I no longer supported most of their strikes, but I felt it was unfair to the union and other members if I kept voting no to their strikes or failing to join the strike. So if I no longer agreed with either their strike action or their policies, it seemed fairer to both them and me if I left.

literalviolence · 07/04/2024 16:19

RebelliousCow · 07/04/2024 15:02

I'm quite happy to challenge you. In fact I enjoy it. I like to play devil's advocate. But as soon as people do challenge you, you tend return to the over-used and predictable insinuations, cliches and tropes about 'right wing' Tories etc

Yes. It belays what appears to be an unreflective stance and a difficult with actually seeing things from any other perspective. Any time anyone resorts to 'you must all be right wing' insinuations, I log that person as someone who potentially has difficult stepping outside of their own experience.

PronounssheRa · 07/04/2024 16:02

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:54

I've been a public servant and my partner works in the civil service. So what?

I would be in a union now, except there is not much point as I'd be on my own in my org. I can get about the same level of support by paying for insurance.

You almost sound like you are purity spiralling.

I'm not purity spiralling I just think you're being a bit hypocritical and unwilling to respect other people's experiences

You've made your choice to sell out for ££ and not be in a union. That's your choice, and I get why someone would make that decision

There are women on here who have direct recent experience of public sector unions, that you don't. They say its not working for them. I just think you should respect their choices.

SinnerBoy · 07/04/2024 16:01

AdamRyan · Today 15:57
.
Are you a member sinner? I did look but they said:

No, but I did look into it, some years back. In my industry, anyone complaining without the support of the HSE in an investigation just quietly runs out of work.

borntobequiet · 07/04/2024 15:59

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 13:26

Oh here we go 🙄
Fine. Just making a point. Let's get rid of the trade unions, they are captured. While we are at it, let's get rid of the EA and the wokey courts. What could possibly go wrong?

No one (other than you) has said get rid of trade unions or the EA.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:57

SinnerBoy · 07/04/2024 15:49

AdamRyan · Today 13:30

I can just imagine my colleagues suggesting we joined a union! I work in very white collar roles. It's not really the done thing, in fact many people hate the whole idea.

https://members.prospect.org.uk/

They aren't all for the horny handed.

Are you a member sinner? I did look but they said:

We can reach agreement or take action to achieve the best outcomes for our members. We are a democratic organisation, and we act according to what our members want.

In the past year we have won some significant pay awards for our members in several workplaces. But to do this we need strength in numbers and so talking to colleagues about issues and asking them to join Prospect is vital!

There is no way I'm talking to my colleagues about unions! They already think I'm a lefty weirdo!

SinnerBoy · 07/04/2024 15:57

lifeturnsonadime · Today 15:53

There are cases whether they refuse to support employees, even after sub payments are consistently made, and claims by employees against their union are not unheard of. I've been involved in a few.

Didn't Kathleen Stock's union more or less turn on her and join in the harassment?

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:54

PronounssheRa · 07/04/2024 14:38

I do love being lectured on the trade union movement by someone who admits selling their soul for ££ and won't join a union themselves.

As a public servant with a partner working in the NHS I'll take no lectures from you.

I've been a public servant and my partner works in the civil service. So what?

I would be in a union now, except there is not much point as I'd be on my own in my org. I can get about the same level of support by paying for insurance.

You almost sound like you are purity spiralling.

literalviolence · 07/04/2024 15:54

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 11:14

No. Unions are always tricky. And we all know there are large elements of the Conservative party that would love to get rid of them because they are quite pesky in terms of protecting workers rights.

I'm private sector so no union for me but there's been several occasions in the last couple of years where I'd really have benefited from support and not having to deal with employment issues alone.

I think trade unions are very important in protecting people at work. They usually reflect their members views and are very democratic.

Therefore I'm surprised to see so many posts focussed on demonising them and suggesting members leave. A better way to deal with them would be for more GC members to join and influence policy. Try to get into the leadership roles themselves.

Unions are acting in a very undemocratic way if they're trying to silence women and they're not reflecting their members views. Just the views of the privileged, entitled and already powerful. Some people will be able to getbi to leadership positions. Others don't have the ability, time or motivation and it's not OK to tell people how else they can express their dissatisfaction with the ways in which men's privileges are protected.

lifeturnsonadime · 07/04/2024 15:53

334bu · 07/04/2024 14:33

The unions (hopefully) are enough of a threat to massively reduce the risk of outright discrimination against women; if it happens the union will support class actions and other legal responses

So women who have their privacy, safety and dignity put at risk in the workplace when men are allowed to share their changing rooms and toilets, will be supported by these particular unions? Will they also support lesbians who receive abuse about their sexuality or will they support men instead?

Exactly this.

The Unions aren't renowned for supporting women's rights in the first place.

I'd personally be loathed to join a union or to be a member of a union which would put the rights of males above the dignity of women to have single sex spaces in work.

If I have problems at work it would be easier to look for support from an organisation like ACAS. Having worked opposite unions as a employment lawyer they are not ALWAYS completely on the side of the employee in any event. Support is always on their terms.

There are cases whether they refuse to support employees, even after sub payments are consistently made, and claims by employees against their union are not unheard of. I've been involved in a few.

But on the point of this thread. It is disappointing but unsurprising that they are now overtly anti woman.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:52

RebelliousCow · 07/04/2024 10:20

AdamRyan is once again trying to suggest that being 'right wing' is the reason that there are so many criticisms of unions. What Adam fails to understand, no matter how many times they've had it explained, is that many of us used to be in the Labour Party; used to be in trade unions, have been active in 'Left'' politics - but once you realise how much the Left has been captured by american style identity politics generally and gender ideology specifically, it is impossible to look at progressive/left activism in the same way again.

Furthermore, many people have been treated appallingly by their local constituency parties and trade unions - for maintaining their grip on sex based reality. And once you see the shadow and its consequences you can never again see it as morally pure; and you also start to find critique of many other of the Left's shibboleths and articles of faith.

It is akin to distancing yourself from a religious cult. When you are in the cult you cannot see its shape, nor observe its practices clearly. It is only when you leave, or are ejected, that your ability to analyse its failings becomes more acute.

Edited

derek Ah I see the problem with my strawman. My first sentence was actually frustration at this reply.
AdamRyan is once again trying to suggest that being 'right wing' is the reason that there are so many criticisms of unions. What Adam fails to understand, no matter how many times they've had it explained, is that many of us used to be in the Labour Party

Flipping rude.

But I understand without quoting the reply my strawman reply looks pretty randomly aggressive.

SinnerBoy · 07/04/2024 15:49

AdamRyan · Today 13:30

I can just imagine my colleagues suggesting we joined a union! I work in very white collar roles. It's not really the done thing, in fact many people hate the whole idea.

https://members.prospect.org.uk/

They aren't all for the horny handed.

Prospect: union for professionals - scientists, engineers, managers and other specialists

Prospect, trade union for professionals, represents scientists, engineers, managers and other specialists in over 300 private and public sector organisations

https://members.prospect.org.uk

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:45

DisappearingGirl · 07/04/2024 15:01

I left altogether. Not sure which other union would be appropriate - perhaps I should look into it.

No idea re unions changing approach. Sadly I think they attract people who are quite fixed in their left wing beliefs (often a good thing as those people are often passionate and principled, but not much room for nuance). So I'm not holding out much hope of change.

Agree re Kathleen Stock.

Edited

I think the protection of a Union is a bit like insurance- worth it should you find yourself in a position where you need it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising Flowers

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 15:44

RebelliousCow · 07/04/2024 15:02

I'm quite happy to challenge you. In fact I enjoy it. I like to play devil's advocate. But as soon as people do challenge you, you tend return to the over-used and predictable insinuations, cliches and tropes about 'right wing' Tories etc

That might be your view. I too see you repeatedly making points I disagree with and insinuations about lefties, bad faith, anti Christian etc.

Like everyone, I have some core values and beliefs that are likely to be expressed in debate. Those aren't "cliches". Those are part of being human.

LoobiJee · 07/04/2024 15:39

PronounssheRa · 07/04/2024 14:38

I do love being lectured on the trade union movement by someone who admits selling their soul for ££ and won't join a union themselves.

As a public servant with a partner working in the NHS I'll take no lectures from you.

Spot on.

ArabellaScott · 07/04/2024 15:23

I very much hope none of them were involved in the homophobic protests, also. That was a particularly unsavoury part of the protest yesterday, but I would expect any serious organisation would want to distance themselves from a 'dykes love girl d*s' sign.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 07/04/2024 15:21

334bu · 07/04/2024 14:37

Women are not leaving unions because they are not GC enough, they are leaving because the unions are not supporting women's rights and if the behaviour in Edinburgh is indicative , they are also no friend to the gay community.

If unions are actively picketing women's rights meetings, and aggressively demonstrating against feminists, I'd say that's going further than just 'not supporting women's rights'. Looks like actively working against women's interests.

I'll be interested to hear whether any of them make any public statements about their attendance yesterday.

OP posts:
DerekFaker · 07/04/2024 15:11

AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 13:33

I am applying "critical thinking". I'm "critically thinking" about why several anti union posts appeared in short succession.

I'm "critically thinking" about who benefits if females are encouraged to leave TUs because they are "captured". Who are the winners and who are the losers from that?

It's all quite interesting to think about critically.

You're not critically thinking. You're just taking cheap shots in order to infer something about the women on this board, and we can all see that. You know people can read all all the posts in this thread and see how inaccurate your little summary is, right?