PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh

But I totally agree, they shouldn't be taking sides in this sort of thing.

Not for me to say. I chose the stroppiest 😀I also looked for one that seemed to have the least political affiliation where my subs werent going to be very obviously going to fund the Labour Party, who I am not very fond of anymore. Not easy, maybe not even possible. Its not a situation without compromise.

I have a family member in a senior position at GMB and they seem somewhat reasonable (not the one I joined) but, as even he says, their official position is unquestioning support for Labour and that TWAW. I think you may have to look past the ideological capture in the case of unions and focus on the good which they undoubtedly do at the individual case level. I've seen this with my family member, support for junior doctors, better conditions for refuse workers, cotton uniforms for supermarket workers as the menopausal women were suffering in nylon etc. etc. They are also very helpful in sex discrimination cases.

Well, let's see what PCS/unite say. I'm sure the wims will be asking, and posting their response here.

By that token, Unions also have a 'right' to argue that managers should have total power over employers and all employment laws should be done away with, and to go to demos promoting this. But that would rather be out of keeping with their purpose as a Union.

They exist to promote their members interests in the workplace. They Unions are not there as individuals with a 'right' to opinions on what they like. They should only be speaking on issues within their remit, and certainly not opposed to their remit. Protesting against women speaking about their basic rights is definitely not in keeping with that.

(As an example, I have in a work situation spoken with Unions in relation to initiatives to get people into work and they quite rightly replied that their focus was really on people already within work, because that is who their members are and their members pay them to represent their interests as workers. So they sure understood keeping within the limits of their remit there).

Anyone doubting this is very ill informed. The union vote ensured that a mild, much watered down motion to protect women wasn't discussed at Scottish Labour's recent conference. The CLPs supported it being put to the conference, the union block vote vetoed it.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5009096-scottish-labour-conference-this-weekend-pro-woman-motions-up-for-vote

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5011009-scottish-labour-rejects-sex-based-rights-motion-backed-by-womens-conference-and-most-clps

Nope. I think anyone has a right to express an opinion.
I'd be pretty horrified if they were at one of TR's "protect the cenotaph" kind of events but that's cos I'm more left wing.

If they were protesting "Let Women Speak" I'd find that pretty outrageous in a similar way. But it's still up to them.

I hope so! It would be appalling, which is kind of why I don't want to believe it.

Which union would you recommend for me? Similar job role

That's a foolish position. Anyone can join a union and many in the high profile city-based tech company I work for have recently done so as they are forcing through some unpopular changes, as its gives you legal cover and representation. A female collague was recently forced out for underperformance and the union rep, in conjunction with their HR lawyer, got the financial settlement they initially offered in the compromise agreement more than doubled in 3 rounds of negotiations that they managed for her.

I can answer your questions. I think unions are there to support workers workplace rights and they should focus on that rather than picking sides on debates outside their remit and expertise. On that basis, I think it was highly inappropriate for Unions to be there.

What about you? Are there any political/ marches/ rallies you think Unions should not represented at? And if so, why these but not Let Women Speak?

@AnotherAngryAcademic

Affinity is a brilliant independent union which is not politically affiliated and has a piece on the front page of their webpage supporting academic freedom. I highly recommend them.

https://workaffinity.co.uk/

I'm just amused at the amount of latitude given one way. If someone who had voted Tory in the 80's had been visiting the National Gallery at the same time as the protest, it would be taken as an example of 'right wing support'. But official union flags being flown to protest women's rights must have some other explanation. The 'just walking past' scenario is nonsense. If it's just outliers, then obviously the unions will strongly denounce the use of their flags?

And genuinely, if it turns out to be the case that the flags were not being used to protest against women's rights, then no-one will be more pleased than me. I still won't rate Unite as a union (because in my experience, they're shite) but at least they won't openly hate women.

What about you? Do you think some movements are so sacrosanct that freedom of speech should be suspended and counter protesting forbidden?

On this issue I think that unions owe a duty to all of their members and should be neutral.

I find it appalling that unions appear to be standing against the right of women to workplace sex based rights.

Of course if this is not what they were protesting against at this event presumably they will clarify their position.

I think 1) everyone can speak about what they want to, protests and counter protests are a healthy part of democracy as long as they are peaceful; 2) I have no idea what PCS/Unite flags were doing at the event and will reserve judgement on that until we find out; 3) there is a long conservative tradition of wanting to disband unions and so I think there is a motive for some people to magnify the significance of the flags at the event.

What about you? Do you think some movements are so sacrosanct that freedom of speech should be suspended and counter protesting forbidden?

I caught bits of what a couple of the TRA speakers were saying, because their volume was so loud. At least 1 speaker wittered on about their trade union experience and how that means they are speaking for " the people" or something similar that sounded out of"Citizen Smith". Presumably trying to prove their ideological purity and justify drowning out women rather than trying to improve working conditions for their members.

I find the outright denial that of what these unions have done at this event absolutely bizarre.

What I'm not clear on is whether Adam think that it is OK for unions to protest against a KJK event because her events are far right (bad) and unions are left (good)?

Or whether Adam thinks that unions protesting against women speaking is OK because men's rights should be at the forefront of women's 'rights' in the workplaces (see single sex spaces)

Or whether Adam is just concerned generally that the 'left' and Labour 'the unions' are pissing women off by their lack of a clear definition of what a women is, our rights, and the fact that our rights are less important to any of the left (as enshrined by the current Labour Party) than the rights of men and that we are noticing?

Perhaps Unite were just walking the dog, PCS were nipping past on the way to get some milk, and UCU had popped out for a loaf of bread?

Thanks 334bu - that knocks on the head the 'they were just passing through!!' argument.

The Palestine protest was beside Waverley Station and remained there. There was no overlap.

Gardens were closed. Protesters were allowed to stand immediately beside LWS barriers on 2 of the 4 sides. In the Mr Menno video, where he is challenging the protesters with the despicably homophobic signs, the protesters are standing directly behind the barrier of the enclosure. The ones with sirens and loudhailers were right beside the entrance to LWS enclosure, probably about 50 yards from speakers.

And having looked more closely at the photos in the OP, I've marked approximately where the union reps were standing. PCS is in red, Unite in blue.

PCS might conceivably have just been passing through. At a push. Unite were definitely not just passing through.

(Edit, not a photo of the event. Photo taken from Edinburgh Guide as an illustration)

I am not saying that to deny there were protesters at KJK event (of course there were) but just as an alternative, slightly less controversial explanation.

The union flag carrying protesters were photographed in the area of the trans activists protesters, with those protesters, part of that group by someone attending the LWS event, am I taking it that you dispute their version of events?

I mean, you could skirt through the Mound to get to Princes Street Gardens to go past the Scott Monument but if it was full of people, you'd be far more likely to go in at Scott's Ice Cream stand or walk along Princes Street. To get into the plinth area, you'd be going to a specific area of the Mound - you wouldn't be using it as a walk through.

The picture in the website attached probably shows it best. Waverley Bridge would be behind you, then there's fencing, then there's this full section of Princes Street Gardens and then the plinth is the space between the two galleries on the upper level. From Waverley Bridge, you'd either have to come through the Gardens and up the stairs to get up to the Mound or come from the front/side on the Princes Street side.
www.whatsoninedinburgh.co.uk/listings/princes-street-gardens/

The protests wouldn't have been cheek to cheek.