Teen boy avoids jail after rape of girl, 12

Kind?
Rape and subsequent death of the girl.
Disgraceful by Judge.

Literally no one is suggesting that a child be put in adult jail. A secure care facility with therapeutic intervention would be appropriate.

I'm not sure I fully agree with you on that, I understand what you're saying about them being old enough to understand right/wrong but I do think there are some factors in early years experiences and exposures those boys had that potentially predisposed them to an extent to what happened. Again I'm not saying there should be no accountability- of course there needs to be. But to me, when a 10 year old is raping or killing another child something has gone seriously wrong. That's not the normal behaviour of a well adjusted, emotionally adjusted mentally well and boundaried child. So I think it's important to understand why things went so wrong, why they felt the need to do what they did - if for no other reason but that we can provide better intervention earlier so that children can get support needed before they seriously harm someone else. I don't believe that criminalisation is necessarily better then intensive rehabilitation and therapeutic work when we're talking about children. I don't think you can treat it the same as say a 40 year old doing the same thing.

i assume his parents think he is a hard done by little angel. Or a good boy led astray.

That poor girl, and her poor family. Perhaps if her shit head rapist had pleaded guilty and spared her a trial, or if it had been processed faster, maybe she'd still be with us.

THIS. ⬆

He didn't just rape her, and hurt, humiliate and degrade her - he laughed in her face and rubbed her nose in it. He could have admitted it, not dragged her and her family into court, genuinely apologised - but he didn't. And I'll put money on him doing it again one day, because he's got off with it.

I hope his parents are very proud of the POS they've raised. I couldn't live with myself if I'd raised something like that.

Edited to add a bit

Look, most boys know very well that rape is wrong. By around age 5 or 6 they will have a basic understanding of bodily consent - that you can't hit people, or take things just because you want them. Boys older than this who persist with violence or coercive behaviour are in clear need of intervention, guidance, discipline, and support.

By puberty they will be very aware of the issue - spiking someone's drink shows intent and forethought. Carrying out a rape of a distressed/drunk girl is way, way beyond any kind of 'misunderstanding'. It's calculated violent abuse.

Yes its an enormous red flag for personality disorder, aggression, future abusive behaviour, and shows a need for serious intervention.

I felt similar when I had my son, and I'm doing my best to make sure that he doesn't become the sort of arsehole that thinks that rape is merely 'unkind' or 'disrespectful'. Because that's a fucking low bar right there.

That poor girl, and her poor family. Perhaps if her shit head rapist had pleaded guilty and spared her a trial, or if it had been processed faster, maybe she'd still be with us.

When my grandson was born you would not believe how relieved I was that he was not a girl.

I'd hate to bring a girl into this mad, misogynist world at present. It's always been bad for women and girls, but now it's beyond the pale.

This is why I wouldn't have children even if I wanted them and could care for them. I couldn't inflict this world on a daughter and I refuse to bring a son into the world in case he became part of the problem.

This. Men now expect credit for absolute bare minimum human decency. It would be like me wanting a head pat for not murdering anyone this week.

No I’m not saying that at all. But im
not going to make lots of comments on a very minimal piece of information, that’s all.

The age of criminal culpability in the UK is 10, one of the youngest in the entire world by quite a lot.

Incorrect. The age of criminal responsibility in England and Wales is ten. In Scotland it is 12. On both sides if the border, this boy is deemed old enough to know right from wrong.

I personally would like to see it raised I don't think it's high enough.

In Scotland, James Bulger's ten-year-old murderers would not have been deemed criminally responsible for his death. I would not be happy with that. At ten, a child without learning disability is old enough to know that killing someone is wrong.

He's claiming credit for not raping anyone else.

this bit is quite important. The bar for men is so low that ‘well I’m trying to be better and not rape girls’ counts as a positive. 🤯

That still seems to say, and apologies if wrong, that you think that there are still reasons that the rapists behaviour can be excusable, if more information is needed? Not just that a 12 yo was raped, which for me is enough. All the people stating 'ah it might just be statutory..' would the Crown really have taken it this far then?

It should be a secure unit if to young for yoi then moved up to yoi when old enough,there have been to many cases of rape in Scotland where not ruining the rapists life has been a first and the girls ordeal a second afterthought.
And at 13 we know the difference between right and wrong.

@WhereIsBebèsChambre if you’re referring to me in your post, read my response again. I said we do not have enough information. The OP had not posted the second article at that point. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Add to her father’s statement the rapist’s remorseless actions after the rape, as OP noted: He didn't admit the crime for 3 years, forcing the girl to face a court case. There is simply no evidence of remorse. He's claiming credit for not raping anyone else.

Totally unnecessary extra misery for the victim. I think we all realise what ended that poor girl’s life. The judge takes not the slightest account of that. Girls really must learn that they’re not important.

I don't think anyone, myself included, has suggested that someone be let off completely because of their circumstances or the background to them committing a crime. I did already say it's not and shouldn't be a complete absolution but that it should be a factor considered for sentencing.

People process trauma very differently and while I'm really glad those men have been working through their trauma in the healthiest way they can, not everyone gets the same access to support. not every survivor experiences any type of abuse in the same way, even when it happens in the same household. Recently I have been working with a young man who's been SA and funding meant the free specialist counselling he's been using and feeling really safe with has just been axed. The NHS waiting list for similar will mean he no longer gets support for years due to waiting lists. It's also lucky he happens to live nearby, most of the young been I work with haven't lived close enough to any specialist service to be able to access it and due to mh haven't felt able to travel over an hour to get to it. Again I'm not saying that all men who go through SA will become sexual abusers, the evidence points otherwise actually. But for some children it can happen while they are still a child.

My point is simply that I feel in those cases context does matter and while I wouldn't expect to see anyone get off completely free, I would want to see a more lenient and therapy/rehabilitation based sentence. As far as I'm aware the harsher sentencing approach doesn't really work, it allows certain social groups to be targeted more particularly and doesn't help with reoffending rates. For those who mentioned about it being a social problem- I agree, the problem is we have a gov who are simultaneously under cutting the things that need to be in place to facilitate decent and well supervised rehabilitation and an extensive support network, charity services, NHS services, access to secure housing etc etc. It has the same impact for any offender leaving prison.

I've said repeatedly I'm aware it may not be relevant to this specific case but what I will say is that of all the young people I've worked with who've been through the justice system, their backgrounds or situations have never been disclosed because they were a minor so I'd imagine the information we get here may also be limited - there's no way to know that for sure.

Toenail.

Even the so-called 'progressive' approach would suggest that there is a reason that this boy raped the girl that needs to be addressed. At least in theory a YOI might be able to address the underlying causes.

Rather than just waving it all away as 'just one of those things', or a mistake he made with no apparent effort to address the implied 'reasons'.

yes I do believe there are some circumstances where someone can be both a rapist and abused/exploited/vulnerable themselves

That's true, but it doesn't mean it's in any way acceptable to use that as a 'justification' to dismiss the serious crime they've committed.

If they need support they should be given it, but in a secure setting. They shouldn't escape the consequences of their crime, and actually that does them no favours because it's giving them the message that what they did and what happened to them is 'ok' if their offender had a tough life.

I've been raped and it's terribly upsetting seeing the apologists particularly from people who say they work in SA services.

I'm in a support group for survivors of SA. I know two separate men who were raped as children. Both had horrific childhoods. Physical and sexual abuse and both were in the care system. Neither have ever raped or harmed a child. They actually hate rapists. I mean really despise them.

It's highly offensive to those men and any victim for someone to suggest that being a victim means there should be no consequences for committing the same crime.

It's also not relevant by the sounds of it in this case. The report says the boy has a loving supportive family.

And the murderers of James Bulger were younger than 13 when they committed their foul, brutal crime.

TBH, I think if a boy is capable of rape at 13, he will be doing much worse when he is 14, 15, 16 . . . 20 . . .

Rape isn't a crime that comes up out of the blue. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this boy doesn't have a history of sexual exposure and/ or physical assault. Perhaps his victims have been shamed or frightened into silence.

This may be the first crime he's been charged with - it is unlikely to be the first he's committed. And he has effectively got away with it. If nothing else locking him up would send a message that this is repugnant, and the law will protect girls, and it would also keep him off the streets, rather than starting a countdown to his next crime.

Like as in Scotland where 18 year old rapists are getting let off for 3 rapes of girls the age of 13 because poor man was young and immature?

Indeed - Scotland, where adult men are considered "too immature" to be aware that rape is wrong, but 4 year olds are old enough to decide they are the wrong sex.

God almighty help us all.

We have decades of progressive thinking that we should "blame society" and not the criminals.

Now is there some truth to the idea that there are "underlying causes" for crime?

Probably sure, but imo it's a "dangerous truth" that gets taken in an unbalanced way, or gets taken to an unhealthy extreme, to remove individual responsibility. Or indeed, people will just focus on the stuff that fits with their own ideology. Progressives mostly aren't going to wonder, "maybe we helped cause a breakdown of the traditional family and so increased crime is partly on us".

Locking him up would...

(1) Send a message about the seriousness of the crime; how repugnant it is in the eyes of society; how it will not be tolerated, and that the harm to the victim is being recognised and taken seriously.

(2) Infliction of suffering on criminals in response to a serious crime is just a good thing in itself. The criminal is held accountable and made to suffer as a punishment.

Some people aren't going to like the idea of deliberately inflicting harm in this kind of way, but compare with other justifications of punishment and it has advantages I believe. You can of course put more resources into rehabilitation at the same time as you punish someone. You can believe in both punishment and rehabilitation as independently good things.

They'll likely have the same apologists @HoneyButterPopcorn "oh they're obviously upset by it all, very stressful for them let's give his family support and counselling'

Like as in Scotland where 18 year old rapists are getting let off for 3 rapes of girls the age of 13 because poor man was young and immature?https://news.sky.com/story/rapist-given-lighter-sentence-due-to-immaturity-at-time-of-assaults-13012994